look at all of the posts in this forum

DOUBLE FUCKING POST

 

Seriously! What does it say about equality around here when a women's forum comes standard, but men who want to discuss important issues pertaining to their own lives have to pony up some scratch to create a private forum? Is the hipforums server so overworked that a bit of free space (and a link on the main page) couldn't be spared?

Oh, that's right, we have to reserve all the public forum space for important things like Pure Bull and Mind Fuck ("have you been mind raped?" - give me a fuckin' break). :$

I respect the women's right to have this forum, and I understand their frustration when guys hijack a thread intended to be helpful and/or serious in tone. But we don't have an all-encompassing "gender issues" forum on this site either. And it hardly seems fair to the men interested in gender studies that they have to post in a mostly female-populated, female-moderated, female-oriented forum in which they're likely to A) be unduly labelled as a "misogynist troll" B) have their cogent arguments met with ROTFLMAOs and 'NUFF SAIDs by the moderator, for God's sake C) be told "why would you go in a women's forum and post something like this?" - It's not like we have much of an alternative, now is it! or D) be met with general hostility if they don't go out of their way to kiss ass.

Just as countless activists say violence and injustice against women will only end when men take a more active role in ending it, the only way the guys around here are going to get a break is if women from this forum help the men petition Skip or whoever the hell is being so stingy to establish a men's forum. And that entails getting over the selfish mindset of preferential treatment ("Women have way more issues, so we need our own forum") and actually supporting the feminist ideal of equality.

Anything less is basically censorship. And fuck that. It's not that some guy can't start a private men's forum on this site, it's that he shouldn't have to.

- Hanzo Sword

 

it's been done. people did ask skip. he said he didn't think there'd be enough interest, so to try it out, he told someone to do it in a private forum. they did. it got very little traffic. it never become a main forum.

 

it didnt get traffic because no one posts in private forums

 

here is an interesting link with a lot of articles on the wage gap


and an interesting article


The Sunday Times - Britain
April 06, 2003
Women choose to have lower pay than men
John Elliott and Maurice Chittenden

THE gap between men's and women's earnings is not caused by discrimination,
according to new research. Instead women choose jobs that pay less because
they want more flexible and socially useful careers.

Social scientists at the London School of Economics tracked the careers of
more than 10,000 students who graduated in 1995 from 30 universities and
colleges in one of the biggest surveys of its type.

They found that although female graduates earn 12% less than their male
counterparts (£25,260 for men and £22,550 for women after three years
experience) the difference is better explained by choice than workplace
discrimination.

The study found that women decide from as early as 17, when they choose
their degree course, on how to combine work and motherhood. They prefer
careers such as teaching and nursing, where they can take an extended break
to raise a family. These choices affect women's wages even at an early
stage of their career and are the single most important determinants of the
gender wage gap, it concludes.

Female students pick degree subjects such as education and the arts, which
produce a lower mean wage than engineering, maths and computing, where most
students are men.

Women are also more likely to work in smaller firms, in the public sector or
on temporary contracts where pay is usually lower than in the City or large
companies.

Part of the gap is explained by different attitudes. Just over half the
women stressed the importance of a socially useful job, but only 32% of men
thought that important. Salary is also a bigger issue for male graduates:
25% said financial rewards were "very important" compared with 14% of women.

New rules introduced today mean parents of children under six can require
employers to consider allowing them flexible hours. It also gives women the
right to find out what men doing the same job are earning. However, the
study suggests the changes will affect only a few women at first because
most are likely to have flexibility already. But with two-thirds of female
graduates saying they expect to take career breaks to have children, it
could have a substantial longer-term impact.

Dr Arnaud Chevalier, a research associate at the LSE who also studies social
change from University College, Dublin, said: "Our research shows that women
tend to go for degrees and jobs dominated by women, even if they have lower
financial return. If you are in a job where you are the only woman, or you
are in the minority, that might bring you stress. So you are more likely to
go for a job where women are in the majority."

Chevalier is to present his study to the Royal Economic Society¹s conference
in Warwick tomorrow.

The study mirrors a survey of 47,000 workers for this year¹s The Sunday
Times 100 Best Companies To Work For, which found women were less well off
but happier at work.

Dr Pete Bradon, a research psychologist at the University of Plymouth who
worked on that survey, said: "Perhaps women do not expect so much.
Employment is not their main form of happiness; they look for something
outside the job."

Many women agree. Nicole Joyce, 33, joined Cardiff-based Admiral Insurance
as a trainee team sales manager 11 years ago and is now the youngest of the
four managing directors, all women, of the group¹s direct insurance brand
companies.

She said: "Money is a factor because you need it to pay your mortgage, but
it is more important to be happy and feel you are making a difference.

³When I do have children the company is very flexible in giving time off."

But Naomi Feinstein, a partner specialising in employment law at Lovells,
the legal firm, said: "The pay gap is self- perpetuating. If you know women
tend to be in a particular industry. women think, ŒI will go there because I
will be more comfortable."

edit: oops, forgot the link http://www.mens-network.org/wagegap.html

sorry

 

try it again then. be proactive. do something if you actually care about the issue.

 

but ultimately we are s uperior to women

 

Mui you are playing right into the hands of the dominant cultural, political and economic subgroup with your devisive talk. Women have a lot less to complain about, but still many reasons to unite, and that's what these forums help foster.
The power structure has changed, and now in many cases you are right that women have more power and influence and less to complain about compared to nonwhite and homosexual men, but to use that as a rift between us just keeps both of us below the power of white heterosexual older rich men, and if we sit around hating each other nobody's going to affect that power structure.
So let's get along, please, and try to work together to affect change.

Like have you heard Abe Lincoln, and many of his peers, were most likely bisexual? It wasn't an issue then, perhaps because it was kept in the closet. So too were women kept in the closet back then, both metaphors for given no political, economic or cultural power. Now that both our subgroups have no closet to be enslaved in/ protected by we have to make our own moves toward a "pursuit of happiness" whatever that may involve: equal pay, equal marriage rights, whatever.

How about I support equal marriage rights if you support equal pay???? (just offering an example, I already support equal marriage rights) Let's work together and stopping whining should be a ground rule toward change no matter what your gender, bender, fender, and lender status.
And real men wear pink. I think every woman here knows that.
Becca

 

I agree that men have a whole set of gendr issues our society places on them that negatively impacts their life. But women have less choice, if a women gets pregnant the guy basically makes the choice of how that child grows up. A women who gets pregant and doesn't want to marry the father is looked down upon a lot more then a man who doesn't want to marry the mother. I can' walk alone out to my car if it's not parked on the driveway after midnight, all of my bosses are men, I've never been hurt emotionaly by a women yet men have always created pain in my life, a guy at my mom's work gets paid afternoons off because he's a single dad and needs to pick up his kids and everyone sees him as admirable- my mom was a single mom and it was what was expected of her as a mother no one gave her societal benefits and no one but me saw it as admirable, men chose who they want to date they are the askers the initiators, men chose the destiny of a relationship-once againt he initators the hapiness holders. The only power we have as women is to leave-leave a job if we're discriminated against, leave a relationship if our partner is misusing power, say no to a date, say no to a salary-we can say no to everything except montherhood. But we are either the deny'ers or the accepters-not the initiators as far as society percieves us.

 

I totally disagree Lynsey, i think women have more power when it comes to relationships in many cases, at least 50%..Women really control the world, men are often completely controlled by them. A woman can make a living of just teasing men, and showing their tits.....or they can be doctors and lawyers, or they can decide to raise a family...or not too...

men are kind of torn because we are modern men, taught to treat women as equals, yet at the same time women may expect you to pay for the date/open the door etc. Women get to have it both ways.

As far as the violence thing goes, yes of course women have to watch out for sexual predators...but men also have to watch out..growing up for many boys is like going through a meat grinder, people starting fights with you for no reason, getting jumped, getting bullied......I think girls are spared from this for the most part.


Both men and women have to deal with shit in their lives, I really don't see how women have it any worse than men.

 

I disagree completely. We have to ask a woman out. SHE decides if she wants to date us. The ball is completely in the woman's court.


There is nothing stopping women from being the initiator. I think most men would like to have women ask them out, to have them call, to have them pay, etc etc. Heck, valentines day is coming up. It can be quite expensive. Shouldnt women be putting out for chocolates and dinner for guys?


As the say goes. Women pick boyfriends, men pick wives.

edit: Women can be initiators. I'm not sure why more women dont ask men out. Maybe they just choose to live under the patriarchal system. Maybe it's because men are better at taking risks? Its increidbly hard to walk up to a girl who you find stunningly gorgeous and ask her out. It's even harder when she says no. It's a lot easier just to be the one who says "yes or no" than to be the one who puts themselves in the position to get turned down.

 

.....omg.... you all sound like a bunch of whiners. Men have it worse, no women have it worse, no men have it worse... enough already. Men and women are totally different and their needs and issues are totally different too. Guys, if you want to have a forum to discuss your issues, then do it, by however means necessary. Coming here to this forum and telling women to suck your penis (yeah you know who I'm talking to) is bullshit and harrassment and not welcome here. Mui, I can respect that you enjoy engaging women in debating conversations, I think that's great. But I think your approach is both rude and disrespectful. Lastly, I think this Men vs. Women conversation is ridiculous - why can't we be accepting of our differences and not turn it into some kind of gender war? This is why there are such issues to begin with - everyone wants to play the victim. Poor me, I don't have a penis, or poor me, I do. I for one refuse to be boxed in to a certain type of being simply because I possess a vagina.

 

That is the real problem with this and with so many problems facing America.

 

I don't see why there would be any issues with renaming this the Gender Issues Forum, rather than just the Women's one....

Women are still discriminated against. So are men. Society has these disgusting stereotypes of what a woman and a man should be, and they sure as hell ain't accurate. Women seem a bit more open to discussion and criticism of stereotypes and other issues, that's why this forum is still alive (though the nut-kicking and pregnancy-from-swallowing threads are a little saddening)

The reason why a lot of these questoins aren't posted on Love and Sex are because you get a lot of inane replies there. Believe me, I frequent that forum, and every other thread seems to ahve something to the effect of "I'd answer you better if I saw you naked". Ugh.

If you guys really feel like you need to talk about this stuff (without attacking people, cuz that ain't cool in this forum, even for those who ahve attempted it) I don't think anyone would mock you. Maybe if it was "why don't hot bitches suck my cock all day long", but if it was a genuine issues, I'm sure we'd be receptive to it. I know I would be. Great way to learn about the male psyche.

 

Ihmurria makes a good point. The reason a lot of us don't post questions/comments/topics in love and sex is because a lot of the time topics aren't taken seriously in there... but also, a lot is discussed here that ISN'T about love and sex..there are other issues for women to deal with than just menstruation, pregnancy, birthing and menopause. I think this is what a lot of people don't understand. This forum is for ALL issues pertaining to women, and this is supposed to be a safe space for that. Personally I think it's great if men want to come here and ask questions, or join in our discussions and offer their opinions - as long as it's done in a manner that's respectful. (And hopefully the women will be respectful back). I don't, however, have ANY respect for guys who come here and accuse us all of having PMS, or bitch about there not being a men's forum, or generally not treating these topics with respect. Guys who do that can turn around and leave.

 

Yea what kind of world is this? look around how depressing it is, everywhere you see people dying , people killing each other and people destroying each other's lives. But then again, look around, may be that is only your perspective of things. Things aren't that bad. Yea people are posting about kicking other men in their groin (?) for self defense, women making snide comments to one another, being depressed and pmsing , and getting pregnant. Sure, people are ignorant, they are depressed and have miserable lives, I have a racist boss at work, I am starting to criticize people in my self righteous ways and hurting them and I failed my drivers license test for the third time!. Yes life sucks, but it also deserves another look if you or I get depressed over these little things , we cannot live, we cannot survive. There are many obstacles one faces in this life. It is time we take them as challenges and try to fight our way through to success.

 

im not t rying to spark debate im trying to stir up feminists because I love their replies.
it's completely different... i just happened to spark debate on accident...
hey, someone might get hurt... but it sure as hell wont be me !

 

I am the complete oppositte of traditional feminism. I agree that gender revolution has added to the lives of women while taking away much of a mans idenity-I am sympathetic to this in a relationship but not at work, school int he grocery store ect. Gender is a private thing and the traits you posses associated with that gender should also be a very private thing. over exposing your feminity adn being an open book to those who have no emotional investment in you is the same as dressing provocativley.

 

For some reason I think the orignal poster wanted to talk about how sex education sucks and how most young women aren't given any way to learn about things that greatly affect their body. And how the post here in the women's forum show that society seems to prefer that women think they can get pregnant by swallowing. (just an example, no offence)

And, how can anyone say women are equally represented in the government? I don't see any female presidents and no one can deny that women make less money than men.

Not to mention that it's socially accepted for men to jack off, or whore around for that matter... but a woman? No way! It's lot's of small things that you men don't notice because you're too busy being... well, men. I do aggree that there should be a men's forum, I mean, there are other forums that serve no purpose what so ever... men probably have things to talk about as well.

American women have it better than a lot of the women of the world, but we still have our issues that you don't understand... so back off you mean guys!

 

that was my intent perfectly and for the record I do think men should have their own forum. To say their is equality in this country when it comes to gender is inaccurate.