A Tremendous Victory

PB, it's hard for me to understand how you live outside the U.S. and seem to think that there isn't a problem with mainstream news media in the U.S. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about your position.

 

Is sound like the pattern of US media. I could be wrong but I never heard them talk about the Iraqi oil workers strike, Iraqi dock workers strike, Iraqi protests regarding the closing of schools, Iraqi protests over privitization (the only reason the 200 firms wasn't privitized was due to the popular resistance), Iraqi protests over the CPA plans of cutting of Saddams social programs like subsidized housing, Iraqi protest over unemployment and the CPA not giving much contracts to Iraqi firms on the major network and if they are they did not make a big deal.

Yet the fact still remains that the US had little problem with Saddam atrocities till Saddam was a threat to US intrest. Plus the US is still okay with Turkey's atrocities aginst its Kurds.

How about your blunder of saying Argentina had no meaningful Anarchist movement when it has the largetst Anarchist movement?
Occupied Factory Movement in Argentina.

If you don't know spanish compañeros means companions. There was even a documenary called The Take on this movement and you in another post said Argentina has no meaningful anarchist movement. Also this is another example of how the US media ingores major events.

 

I'm not saying there is no problem with US media. I'm saying I don't watch it so I don't need new perspectives, which is what you had suggested.

Psy, as is typical you ignore your last mistake and try to stick 12 arguments in its place. Why did you say the media didn't report the story when they did? Either you have a source giving you incorrect information, or you were just assuming that because it fit your prejudices, it must be true. Which was it?

Its always funny to see the bizarre choices you make in attacking a free Iraq. You pretend that Sistani says the elections were illegtimate when Sistani supported them and even issued a fatwah that people should vote. Now you pretend to be with the Kurds when they are the strongest supporters of the occupation. Can't you do better than this?

I also find laughable your claim that Argentina has a major anarchist movement. 15,000 out of 37 million? Whooopee, the revolution is almost there.

I'll tell you a secret about anarchist economics. If you take over a factory that someone else has built and then renounce all their debts and refuse to pay anything to the people that built it, you'll find that you can operate quite profitably, about as profitably as anyone else could operate a factory that had, in economic terms, magically appeared out of thin air. At least until you need some more loans so you can invest in the company. This is what the anarchists are now discovering - if you default on loans and steal assets, nobody is especially excited about lending money to your wonderful cooperative, no matter how may artists and poets sing its praises. Within the next few years, assuming Argentina doesn't do as much self inflicted damage to its economy as it has in recent years, this exciting anarchist movement will deservedly fade away to nothing.

You seem to believe that news networks should offer 24 hour coverage of leftist economic gripes. Can't you see that is just your bias, not the media's?

 

So CNN ran it, CNN make a big deal about and there is world of major events the media doesn't report.

Before last March he did. He stated only direct elections would be.

Only after he abandoned the cause.

Nope I said the US supporting Turkey's atrocities aginst its Kurds is proof the US had no plans of spreading freedom.

Major in what they accomplished plus there is support from other fractions.

The problem is the IMF keeps nations like Argentina in poverty with debt. If they can thrive without loans (as they are doing now) then this Argentina movement will work. Your missing the point, these anarchist are fighting for true democracy! A capitalist like you just won't understand that capitalism and true democracy doesn't mix. While their economy is more democratic they need to get the reast of the world to replace capitalism with democratic economies, where the people democraticly dictate the economy not the market..

 

Well that's the point. You said nobody did, and not only did CNN run it, but plenty of others did as well. Are you trying to tell me it is somehow irrelevant that you got the facts completely wrong?

Lets talk about now. Lets talk about reality. Because you can't say Sistani's opinion only counts when he agrees with you.

But there is peace in Turkey - diplomacy won out while Turkey stayed a US ally. The Kurdish rebellion ended. Looks like freedom spread there too - guess you weren't looking.

As for the IMF, well it would help if you realised that only a portion of Argentina's debt was to the IMF. A lot of it was to the country's own citizens, and a lot of it was to all kinds of foreign lenders, from banks to individual retirees in Italy, for example. All these people were robbed.

Nobody can thrive without loans. Do anarchists think that because they can live off of stolen assets they have invented a new form of economics? If I move into my neighbor's house and refuse to pay rent or his mortgage payments, sure I'll increase my standard of living but is that because my form of economics (stealing) is superior to his (paying for things, respecting property rights)? That's "true democracy"? Where would true democracy be if you couldn't steal the fruits of capitalist labors?

If you want to build a wonderful commune economy, go ahead, but don't claim that stealing property is some kind of economic democracy, it isn't. When anyone, "the people", or the government, try to dictate the economy, you end up with no economy.

 

No I didn't, I just agreed with shaggie when he said it and I was just agreeing with the fact the media missing boat loads of major events in general not his statement about CNN.

I am a anarchist, I don't belive in leaders "No Masters/No Gods" so only the movement Sistani was in counts his personal views only counts as much any other Iraqi.

Still a double standard.

Since they don't have owners and managment draining wealth from the factory, they can use that money to reinvest in the factory like they are currently doing.

How can you steal something that is rightfully yours? They are are just liberating the means of production that is rightfully the peoples. The goal is to put all of the means of production under democratic control.

I didn't, I said that liberating the property and putting it under democratic control is economic democracy.

That is the stupidist thing I ever heard. USSR and China had state capiatalism and had a economy for many years so that proves goverment can dictate the economy while still having a economy so the people under democracy should be able too.

 

"Maybe 70% of Iraqis turn out to vote.
Iraqis on the way to the polls see insurgents driving around in am ambulance, surround the vehicle, capture the insurrgents, and turn them over to Iraqi authorities.
A Major Victory for democracy, for Rumsfeld, Rice and the President, for conservative voters who held the line, for the American military, and especially for Iraqis.
A Major Defeat, and total humiliation for all those who opposed the war, and have done all they could to thwart democracy in Iraq. if they aren't ashamed today, they should be."

I thought I saw on the news that quite a few Iraqis died standing in line to vote. Maybe not too many I don't really remeber now...but if ANY people died because they were all in one place (like sitting ducks) then I would say the "victory" is quite a ways off.

 

Then I assume that you acknowledge that the U.S. provided Saddam with strains of anthrax, botulism, and west nile virus in the 80s.