from sheets music to improv

i have this friend who can play a mean piano reading sheet music, but she's NEVER EVER tried improvising. We went down to one of the pianos at school and i set up my amp and said i'm playing in this key and what chords i was playing and told her to let loose. YEAH RIGHT! she just stared at me, like, "what do i do?" then i asked her to chop out some rhythms with some changes i suggested and she didn't know what to do. i've seen her play crazy stuff, and i want to take advantage of her skills for jamming==>makeout sessions ..lol... i thought it might help by starting her on only pentatonics, but i really wanna get a dissonant jazzy sound in the end, so any suggestions? has anyone else tried to get a music-reading pianist to jam? VENT YOUR FRUSTRATION!!! GIVE ADVICE!! whatev.
peace,
Brad

 

I'm the exact same way with music. I can play solo like a madman but if someone tells me to play a song... I just can't do it.... and I can't stand playing setlists... I like a pulling songs out of a hat kinda thing... But, I've never really played with a band... and I find working with people can be a pain sometimes if they're controlling, since I like to mess around and let it flow.

 

hell yeah. if i wanted to hear someone else's song, i'd play it on the cd player. AND i'd probably sing harmonies or jam w/ it.

 

I agree George, I preffer to play solo, just improvise on the spot. But then, I'm in a band and I have to conform to song playing.. but the band environment also gives place to some amazing improv sessions... it's worth it.

 

Yeah, I know. Sometimes you just have to make comprimises to get what everyone needs/wants and accept what comes from it.... it's difficult to keep everybody happy, sometimes, but that's one part of what it's about. Working with people.... sometimes there's good people to work with, then there's the kind of egocentric people with their heads up their asses... and some who just can't play... then there's the great well rounded ones... then there's the people that stand out. Only problem is... I can't find anyone who knows who to really play anything besides powerchords to work with and sometimes people get irritated when I do these weird ass neil young sounding gritty solos if I'm playing my les paul... but I sound totally different on a strat... I'm a lot neater sounding. And honestly, I'm thinking of beridding the les paul. I've come to love strats better as more of a well rounded and versatile instrument. But, there's some things that a strat can't give me... and that's peter frampton, neil young, allman brothers, etc... I can't get a nice cranked sound on a strat at low volume levels like I do with a les paul. Though, if I could get about $2000 for a PAF pickup out of a '59 les paul and put it in a Fender Fat strat with some texas specials... I'll be set for life... I should buy something like a custom shop relic and a '64 vibroverb and a marshall bluesbreaker combo reissue with an A/B switcher so I can run them at the same time or mic one into the other. I'm getting tired of the damn tube rattle on my twin. I like the Marshall combos. Stacks are just too damn loud and overkill.

 

give her ideas of what you do with improv. show her the scale you're gonna use, then get her to play a simple chord progression then solo over it. then you do a chord progression and try to get her to do the same thing
or, if she's a hippy like the rest of us, make out with her and say "play what that means to you" and if she plays something dissonant and nasty, you know you've gone wrong =-P

 

Hahaha...

 

For starters, I don't really have anything to vent. Most of the pianists I've played with in jazz/rock/improv groups or jam sessions could read music; most of them were classically trained as well, and could easily move between idioms and styles. I've had way more trouble with guitar players in that regard...
Shifting to the subject of your friend, maybe she needs to listen to more improvising pianists before she just can just start tearing it up. Even if you show her pages of changes and scales, what point of reference does she have? Does she know what kind of music you're wanting to play-- beyond that, how familiar is she with that style as a listener? Find some albums that reflect what you're looking for in a piano sound (as well as what you're looking for in an overall group sound) and share them with her. Have some "deep listening" sessions at your place or hers and be sure to discuss the music you listen to between tracks-- don't just turn it into a makeout session! Make some mix tapes/CDs for her to check out when she's heading to school, work, whatever. Just get her listening to more improvisational music. Hope this helps a bit...

 

hahah. the jam>makeout segue was mostly a joke. but yeah, deep listening sessions are crucial. it's hard to tell how others listen to music... most of the girls i know appear to (some admit to) just pay attention to the lyrics and singing when they listen to bands, but oh well. i don't know guys like that because i just wouldn't put up with it! later,
brad

 

I play guitar and my fiancee is a sax player - similar deal - wanted to jam some but she couldn't - a sax player who can't improvise I said!! We'll soon do something about that..

I started by doing a kind of duel with her, we'd record a backing track, then we'd jam over it, i'd go first and get her to repeat what I played - then we'd move on to her embellishing the parts I play, then making them up herself.

What i've found with good musicians who can't improvise is that they have the necessary theory, but don't know how to apply it to an improvised piece - using my method just gives them a feel for how to apply what they already know to improvisation.

Listening only works if they already have an understanding of improv, play some pieces and ask her to tell you which ones are improvised and which aren't - chances are you will be able to tell just by listening, she probably won't.

When i first started improvising it was basically a bunch of standard licks put together to form an improvised solo, this helped me understand and hear what works in different situations, maybe that would be a place to start, basically teach her some standards and get her to work on using these in an improvisation, then get her to move onto making the whole thing up herself.

Just a coupla ideas!!

 

Wow, that sounds so amazingly like me. I've been playing piano for my whole life, but I've only ever played other people's music. Now I'm getting into jazz, and my friend is constantly trying to get me to improv, and I can't. I'm totally clueless. I'm taking jazz lessons now, and my teacher is showing me how to improv, but it's still not helping.

The only suggestion I have is not to pressure her. When people pressure me into doing my own thing, I just get mad, and want to do it even less. Try to encourage her to do some stuff on her own, and try to figure out what sounds good.

Hopefully you'll have better luck than me.

 

For Imoprov To Work You Just Naturally Have To Be Good At It, And Its Always Different Depending On Who You Jam With. For Me It's Just Not That Hard, And Me And My Friends Just Jam All The Time And Usually It's Pretty Nice, Sometimes Seems A Little Repetitve Though, Playing With The Same People Who Dont Really Change Theyre Style Too Much. But It's Still The Most Fun.

 

Yeah, start with the scales and work your way up.

I think it is so sad when a brilliant musician who actually reads music can't jam worth a fuck. Sometimes it's just because they never tried...

Man, I've always read music *and* improvised... hehe, when I learned my first scale on the flute, I was already trying to play along with Jethro Tull. LOL.