Yoga can leave you injured, psychotic and a Hindu

I've done goat yogurt before, but never goat yoga!

 

If my eyes rolled any harder at that article, they'd be marbles.

 

I guess if your back is outta whack...

 

Bits of truth in there, but obviously tweaked for ideological reason.

When studying yoga therapy at KYM (run by Krishnamacharya’s son and as close to the source of modern yoga as it gets) the MD who run that program told me they had a lot of people seeking treatment that were injured by yoga practice in the first place. And I got an injury practicing and teaching even there under the supervision of that same MD teacher, and it is still bugging me many years later and will probably stay with me for life.

So yeah, not uncommon.

As for the health benefits they are heavily overblown. In this period of far right Hindu centric political dominance in India there is a lot of medical research that is supposed to prove it, but judging from those I attended it is ridiculously bad and biased.

IMHO if it is just health focused physical exercise hit the gym, it is more effective and healthier.

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I have also personally seen psychotic breakdowns, though not from just asana. I am not going to say it is absolutely impossible, specially if combined with more advanced practices that include bandha and pranayama in asana practice, but what I have seen was a result of a more “sedentary” part of yoga - pranayama, bandha, “kriya”, meditation….

In some cases there were obvious predispositions, but same had no history of psychosis either personally or in the family (though we can never know on such a small sample).

But yes, psychosis as well as depersonalisation and derealisation episodes do happen, as do episodes of strong decompensation and emotional breakdown and probably other things too.

But so do in other religious practices. Some descriptions of “ecstasies and demonic attacks” from hagiographies of saints fit into a psychotic breakdown description as much as an “aberrant kundalini awakening” does.

So calling it out might make sense from a secular medical POV or from more balanced approach to spiritual life, but from a different religion makes it a bit hypocritical.

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Turning one hindu really depends on what is the marketing shtick that the group uses. Some will be more health and wellness focused and will at best turn you a bit more lightheadedly newagy.

Some include much more religious elements, gurus and such. There is at least a potential to turn you into a member of a Hindu-adjacent cult. Whether actually ever a Hindu is up to debate.

And with “kundalini yoga” you can get into a pseudo-Sikh cult too (every actual Sikh I ever knew has a big eyerolling reaction to them), it is not just pseudo hinduism.

Though it is more complicated with Hindu-adjacent than Sikh-adjacent groups given how much variety there is in Hinduism, so there is no single take on what even constitutes and should be recognised as a Hindu.

But again that is an accusation that might be done from a secular atheist perspective. What are Christians complaining about, someone encroaching into their own turf I guess?

If there is a ban on Christian elements in schools, than it is OK to ban yoga from that POV too. Otherwise one would first have to turn the state from secular into Christian to use it as an argument. Also if one exist only as elective in schools and can be refused, than the other should too and not be a part of regular obligatory programs.

 

Hindu-yoga relations are rather convoluted if we want to go into that.

Hatha yoga was a very minor practice to begin with. There are some precursors in Tantric practices, but they tend to be closer to simple kriyas or even something like chi-gong in some versions than "gymnasticised hatha". It is the easiest to see those today with some practices in some Tibetan Buddhist traditions.

Later sources that describe things closer to modern Hatha yoga, like the Hatha Yoga Pradipika are probably a deritualised derivate, and some speculate an influence of the martial military exercise on making it a bit more physical. But practitioners that would follow that whole system are rare, I don't know of a single one. Those who do follow a more traditional hatha practice today have it changed to both include a wider array of asana and to mix it with a more popular religious system. An often-used framework is the classical Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali even though the asana part there most probably refers only to a sitting position for more advanced practice and has no dynamic asana of the Hatha yoga initially implied.

But even that is more theoretical than practiced, in practice it is often mixed with other Hindu practices and ideas. What is called "classical hatha" today in Western yoga circles is mostly a late colonial neo-Hindu hybrid of various previously independent traditions and is a modernist movement in itself. Most, but not all of them use a simplified version of Smarta-inspired neo-Vedanta as the foundational ideology into which to inculcate all the various practices and ideas of various traditions that were often opposed to the point of killing each other in premodern times. As with perenialism in general. it is often not philosophically the most consistent approach and emphasizes vary between groups, but there is no pure Patanjali ashtanga anywhere, let alone a pure Hatha practice as a full system, not just extrapolated elements of practice.

More traditional groups that are linked to Hatha like Yogis (in the sense of Nath sampradaya) are more likely not to practice too much hatha than to practice, and for those to do it is more likely to be a help for sustaining long sitting meditation than something spiritually relevant. Or at least until very recently, in modern times it is starting to back-influence.

Where modern hatha even comes from is not completely certain and there are speculations of various influences from mentioned military exercises to early colonial Western calisthenics craze to contemporary gymnastics, physiotherapy, and whatnot.

The single most important source of that development was Krishnamacharya. Presented as a very traditional Hindu, even as a respected Sri Vaisnav theologian, but when it comes to yoga he was very revolutionary even if under the garbs of traditionalism.
For example, he "rediscovered" an "ancient scripture", the Yoga Rahasya od Nathamuni, an early medieval Vaishnava saint and theologian. And that scripture fully supported his innovations. The problem is that it was not an archeological discovery, but an inner one, Nathamuny supposedly dictated it to him in a vision. And of course even if ancient it addressed mostly the contemporary issues that Krishnamacharya was dealing with, like supporting teaching yoga to lay people and females, not just male sadhus. Make of that what you will - I am personally of the opinion it is either completely invented to deal with the traditionalists or a way for his own mind to deal with internal discrepancies between a desire to innovate and personal conservatism. What I highly doubt is that it has anything to do with a historical scripture from a historical figure.

He also had unverifiable claims about where and how he learned all those different and much more numerous asanas than what can be found in scripture, from an unknown, obscure teacher in the mountains of course no one can trace. Again, make of it what you will.

Then through one of his most important disciples, Iyengar, who has developed a more static form, it had a strong influence on what is presented in so-called "classical Hatha" by more religiously or spiritually inclined groups.

All that still had almost no influence on traditional Hinduism though. In some ways, it become more popular amongst Western alt-spiritual circles than with Hindus. It also continued to develop and get more outside influence there.

But in recent times, as India had a level of fast economic development and created a stronger urban derooted middle calls, those same practices, and those jet-set self-made gurus (sometimes even completely divorced from traditional Hindu sampradayas) started becoming big in India too, and often started popularising modern yoga in their organizations.
Also, the far-right Hindutva-influenced politics of recent decades decided to use the popularity of yoga as a soft power political tool both in internal and even more foreign politics.

One of the visible shifts during those decades was seeing more and more Hindu groups adopting yoga as a way to create points of contact with the laity and potential followers. Even some groups that were not very kind towards the practice before. There were many such in India, but in the West an easily recognizable example would be the Hare Krishnas. Prabhupada has not had a high regard for Hatha Yoga, but many of their local groups now offer it and teach it and they have even developed a semi-internal teaching tradition (derived from Jois Ashtanga if I remember correctly, but might be wrong).

It creates a source of income for people who spent their lives in religious institutions and have limited marketable skills, but also creates a new point of entry for recruitment of potential new members for the sect.

So it is at the same time historically probably not nearly as traditional a Hindu practice as presented to the target market, but it is also in fact being presented as such (and social and psychological realities are created by beliefs rather than historical facts) and also heavily used as a tool for recruitment into even some traditional Hindu groups, but even more modern Hindu or Hindu-adjacent cults.
And as is often the case with religious groups they tend to develop multi-layered and sometimes even opposing narratives depending on the target. Because it is sometimes beneficial to present it as a non-religious practice, both to expand the market for financial reasons and to create more recruitment potential, but it is sometimes also beneficial to present it as closely related to Hinduism when using it as a soft-power political tool, or when recruitment goes from the initial to the grooming phase. Of course, different teachers and organizations have different goals too, some are in it just for the money, some just for recruitment, and some a bit of both.

As a post previously described it so well - it is complicated and way beyond the job of a school teacher to deal with.

 

Ironically, Christ supposedly spent years in India studying with the Masters, bringing many of their spiritual teachings to the West. He just phrased things differently.

Let's not forget many Buddhists also practice yoga. So it's not just a Hindu thing.

Christians don't care much for Buddhists either.

I wonder why Christians are so insecure in their religion? Maybe cause it makes no logical sense today? Maybe because it's based on lies?

Virgin birth, physical resurrection, it's easy to see why Christians are so gullible. It starts with Santa Claus and Easter Bunny, ends with witch hunts, Crusades, inquisitions, racism, pogroms, misogyny, Catholics vs Christian Wars, Islamophobia, anti-LGBT+, etc. Yes, Christians have always been and will always be part of one of the most hateful and violent religions.

And they attack yoga, something that brings peace, physical health, and mental harmony to people. Btw, the word 'yoga' means 'union', of mind and body. Absolutely no diety involved.

And yes, I learned yoga in a community college class in the 70s. I wish I'd learned it in elementary school. I'm sure it can help adolescents deal with their social anxieties better.

 

Now I 'spose you're saying there's no santa claus---no easter bunny!! Why, I oughta------

 

It is true that it's not for everyone. There are some moves I can't comfortably do because of joint damage. But the same can be said for any physical exercise. I started learning it at p.e when the weather wasn't good. The way it was worded though only serves to reflect poorly on the person as an illogical hate monger.

 

Here Scratcho, for you.

 

I don't think any half-serious historian is supporting that theory, it seems pretty much in the same category as the flat earth and aliens building pyramids as far as the scientific community is concerned
The guy that came up with the story was considered a laying scam artist almost from the beginning, with the head of the monastery where he supposedly found evidence denying he ever visited them.

Yes, but not this modern hatha though. Well, there is one exception of a modern take on the practice that is almost the same as a typical modern Western HY, I have seen that in this one Western group connected with Tibetan Buddhism, but I am personally skeptical that it is something all that original and not heavily influenced by other strains of modern Westernized Hindu Hatha.

Tantric practices of "energy manipulation" that can be related to general tantric precursors of Hatha, and that are easier to find with Tibetans, look very different and would be easier to relate to chi gong in my opinion, at least by outward observation, and often even more static. Often just some short movements in the seated position etc. Outside of Tibet is not really a thing in Buddhism though as Hatha is a derivate of tantric practices, but most of the surviving Buddhism left India before that phase of religious development and has limited to no tantric influence. I can't remember seeing it even in those few tantric strains like Shingon Buddhism in Japan that left India in an early stage, but might be wrong. If it is right it points at "physical-energy-manipulation" type of practice as being a late development even within the tantric movement time frame. But that is a very wild guess, I am more familiar with pre-tantric developments in Buddhism, and especially know extremely little about Shingon or other early, non-Tibetan tantric traditions.

If talking about Patanjali Ashtanga then yes, there is a strong relationship as Yoga Sutra reflects more of the Sramanic than Vedic traditions. One might see it as a vedicised sramana tradition alongside Samkhya, much like Buddhism and Jainism survived as independent ones, and some even consider a specific Buddhist text to be a potential direct inspiration for the YS.

But that has nothing to do with modern physical Hatha Yoga. Modern "yoga gymnastic" approach is a much, much later (a period contemporary to European late Middle Ages) derivate of a later tantric practice (starting from earlier Middle Ages), while Sramana ascetic practices relatable to Yoga Sutra predate tantric influences by more than 1000 years. Modern tendencies to combine the two and explain the asana stage of Ashtanga with post-tantric hatha is just that, a modern conjecture unrelated to the original Yoga Sutra.

For the same reason Hindu fundamentalists are harassing Christians and Muslims these days?
And I am not talking about discussions about school programs but everything down to mass killings.
Every religion does the same shit, it is always a power struggle, our peaceful perception of Hinduism and Buddhism is heavily skewed by our own needs to project utopian ideals on the "far and exotic" and distance ourselves from the familiar, especially if we tend to be anti-establishment.
It is also played on by cult leaders of Indian provenance looking for western disciples in that particular social pool. But realities are a bit more complex. Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu fundamentalist. Weapons that Naga Babas display for the show today were once used on other humans. Muslims of course, but also for wars between various Hindu sects and ultimately descended into mercenaries for hire and even banal racketeering until the English colonial power, unafraid of their "magic", managed to reign them in, though not before hiring them as mercenaries on occasion too.

Every religion is also based on lies.

That is probably a very contemporary reinterpretation.
The earliest usage of the word in a religious/spiritual sense is probably more related to discipline and self-control. It later developed in also bein interpreted as the union of the individual and the absolute, soul and the divine, etc (Yoga Sutra itself tends to be more related to Samkhya than to Vedantic philosophies, and that one is not very theistic, much like Buddhism and Jainism and other sramanas are not, but are the probable source of ascetic meditative ideals and practices on the subcontinent, but in time it started to mix with more theistic Hindu phylosophies, be it monistic advaitin ones or non even some nonmonist, or not-purely-monist ones that still incorporate some yogic ideas and practices).
There is very little physical in yoga practice of that early period and this "mind and body" union is probably just a contemporary new-age phrase with questionable historical accuracy and more related to the wellness industry, a heavily reinterpreted version even of the latest iterations of Hatha yoga, and aimed at a very different target audience that switched from a small subset of exclusively male and exclusively ascetic religious figures using it for spiritual goals to premenopausal ladies looking for a social community and a place to express themselves and stretch a bit.

Also, yoga as a term is now used for such a wide spectrum of religious disciplines that you can not ascribe a single practice to it these days. A lot of those practices are centered on deities, a lot of meditations use the form and name of a deity, and every single mantra is related to a deity (besides TM which is a new invention, has never been used like that in India, and is also avoiding telling clients the fact that even bija mantras, even if not with a direct meaning, are still related to specific deities). But what Christian criticism is mostly referring to is that most yoga traditions are not limited just to that basic asana practice, if you go deep enough it will start introducing elements of faith Hinduism, or at least a washed down and mixed-up new-age version of the same. Which is also mostly a factual statement.

Also as far as it is from modern wellness hatha, if you still want to include pre-extruded full-on tantric era hatha-like practices and precursors, like what you find in (Tibetan)Buddhism, then it is all heavily and inseparably mixed with deity and guru practices. Deity and guru practices are in general fundamental to most tantric traditions, it would be very atypical to have a tantric practitioner without a lot of deity-focused nama-rupa meditative practice that everything else builds on.

 

You know this shit!

 

Wasted way too much of my life on (bull)shit

 

A little insight into how modern yoga in the West works and develops





rishiknots – Born and raised in 3HO Sikh Dharma Kundalini Yoga

A fairly typical sequence of events.

Traditional, premodern yoga was never present at all, so there are cults with early "big gurus" like the example above using a combination of traditional yoga, gymnastics, personal fantasies, and religious manipulation, and today the development of postmodern yoga that is devoid of lineage altogether, IMHO healthier even if more corporate and business minded. Still with occasional personality cults and abuse, but more localized, moderate, and closer to what happens in many other regular human interactions with a disbalance of power.