Karma is tough

A news story from today. a girl from Mexico headed to USA to have a course of life saving treatment paid for by a charity which she had and her and family headed back home to Mexico. The Learjet crashed killing the girl and her family and crew of aircraft.

Medevac plane crash victim ID'd as young girl headed home to Mexico after 'life-saving treatment' in US

Is this the Buddhist and Hindu law of karma, clearly immensely complex in this specific instance at play which we must believe ? How to reconcile ? Or is it just karma that we do something good and good will happen as a result that we are ok with. Karma is very uncomfortable when such events happen.

Is it it enough to say..... the exact interplay and reasons is complex beyond our understanding, is that a good enough justification for belief in Karma. Difficult to navigate Karma as well at times.

Also seems incredibly judgmental for us humans to say, karma, everything is karma.

I want to ask the tough questions, the uncomfortable questions, as I feel being in a stupor of "belief comfort|" can be like burying your head in the sand, belief is enough ? I think not and why I like to say "I do not know" more than I believe.

Karma or at least cause and effect can be tested right now, go out and verbally abuse someone enough and the likely result is you will be punched on the nose, go and give them flowers and they will likely smile and say thank you. This simplistic and verifiable example of karma is easy to understand. However we know the implications of karma are supposed to go far beyond this simplistic practical experiment and it is incredibly awkward and immensely uncomfortable for anyone with a heart.

Where does compassion come into this belief? Is another question. To believe it beyond the simple example I gave seems to have the need of suspending compassion... and accepting that it simply is without question, reasoning or logic.

 

I tried to give someone flowers once on fathers day and they called police on me...

These ppl used to be like a 2nd family to me and they tried to force me to get that dsngeros covid shot and they have been quite mean to me now for 3 years... Manly because I wouldnt accept this death shot.

Very sad

 

It all seems a little bit convenient to me. Buddha essentially said not to inquire for yourself on this matter ? Yet on matters of Buddhist teaching he said come and see and think for yourself, very open A big contrast.

"Maybe some of the people on that plane had done something bad in a previous life."

Or maybe this has nothing to do with reality ? A belief is a type of fantasy that one consciously has to choose to accept. It is believing in fate as opposed
to the random unfolding of existence.

If you believe in fate, which is the antithesis of random unfolding of the universe then you cannot believe in becoming something than what you are. Becoming something other than what you are through doing good or practice, I am this and will become that through effort does not accord with believing in fate.

It is one or the other.It is an illogical position to have it both ways.

Not really personal to you Kathy, as I am sure many who believe in Buddhism believe the same, what is said to be believed and not questioned. Which is also rather surprising cause Buddha said come and see, find out for yourself.

It all seems incongruous to me and then Buddha has said do not think about these matters. Could that not be incredibly dangerous for individuals and as a consequence societies ?

It seems that the Buddhist religion itself also is subject to karma. By the same logic some of these monks must have very complex Karma. Not thinking about this seems incredibly dangerous to me, remember the second world war and Nazi's ?

Why are Buddhists in Myanmar killing Rohingya Muslims?

Myanmar Monk Rebukes Intolerance by Buddhist Nationalist

Not entirely upstanding citizens or people to look up to.

I have great difficulty accepting it. A long time ago I had a situation talking about karma and a friend subsequently told me of a very sad experience his parents had where a child had died in an accident. He obviously felt upset that I had spoken about karma and then I also felt bad at the time as I did not feel it was respectful talking about karma and it made me feel what I had taken from some book was very insensitive, that stayed with me.

It feels heartless and insensitive to me to judge a child's death for example as maybe inter life karma which is what Buddhism suggests is something to believe in and not think about.

That does not feel virtuous or good to me, it is not sitting comfortable. Belief being more important than trying to understand why something happened and thinking about it to try and make sure it does not happen again, for example, like safety standards improvement or Nazi'ism.

There is something potentially sinister about... "something good or bad happened in a past lifetime" as an explanation.

It takes a lot of skill to navigate that, in this life, which is the only life that matters now.

 

I tell ya Cathy... 3 plane crashes now.. Def looks suspicious! (Maybe the universe paying ppl back??)

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on the subject of karma, etc., this is just my 2 cents. What I have to say is not necessarily consistent with any kind of orthodox understanding.

Karma is a complex subject. You could fill and entire library with all the books that have been written about karma. So simple explanations may be hard to come by.

Perspectives may differ, but I think it's considered that most people have vast stores of karma, meaning that essentially anything can happen to anyone, and it would be entirely allowable by, but not necessarily caused by, one's karma. Certain events may change your karmic balance sheet, but usually an event does not occur by the overwhelming force of karma. So if something we think is bad happens to someone, we can't necessarily conclude that they must have worse karma than anyone else.

It's also important to consider that in the enlightenment traditions, the only truly fortunate life is one that leads to enlightenment. From a conventional perspective, a life where one attains one's worldly desires, the things we like, would be considered fortunate, whereas one where one gets things that are disliked, or feared, would be considered unfortunate. However, if you get something you like, isn't a little good karma burned away? And if you get something you dislike, isn't a little bad karma burned away? From this perspective, a life of trials and tribulations might actually be the most enviable, as long as it leads to following a spiritual path.

Any experience could be considered a kind of blessing. The real problem comes from becoming attached to those experiences. Someone who has a life full of pleasures, and who willfully does harmful things to attain pleasures and desires is only more deeply entangling themselves in samsara, and building a store of bad karma. Someone who becomes enraged when they experience things that they don't like is also causing themselves to suffer and resisting a process that is clearing away their bad karma.

The victims of the plane crash didn't necessarily have bad karma. Death is not necessarily a bad outcome. If one has strong faith in reincarnation, then it is simply like trading old clothes for new. Death is only unfortunate if it knocks one off the spiritual path, or if there is unfulfilled dharma.

In the Hindu tradition, if one recites mantra, or focuses one's attention on God at the moment of death, then one attains liberation. Death under such circumstances would be the ultimate blessing. I'm not sure if there is something in the Buddhist tradition that is similar, but even if one did not become enlightened, certainly one could be reborn into a pure land, or otherwise have a fortunate rebirth.

I think @KathyL is correct is suggesting the thing to focus on is compassion. Praying for the swift Buddhahood or fortunate rebirth of the victims may be the best way to respond, even if the karma behind the event is unknown.

 

double post

 

Thanks Kathy L I will consider your reply, much makes sense.

The above also appears reasonable but some is problematic. That highlighted in black.

Apparently we should not question if karma is or is not burned away. So we should not ask it seems according to Kathy.

I find it difficult to feel that if I was a starving child in Africa that this would be enviable. That seems uncompassionate even as an idea.

Death is a bad outcome for the friends and relatives woven into the web of this life with the person who died. You see the "do not be averse" is an ideal, something that appears not natural. This needs to be cultivated in time, and we can tell ourselves anything and ultimately believe in anything anyone tells us.
I suppose if you have the inclination you must test it for yourself with no input from others. There is immediate resistance to someone who you love deeply dying. Logical thinking also says let go immediately of everything bad for the least pain, losing a hand, losing a job, losing your partner, losing your own life.

However the human brain has evolved to encompass both logical and emotional intelligence. Letting go instantly feels unnatural to the ordinary mind.

For me the problem here is naturally being the balance between compassion for oneself and others in crisis and not being instead a cold psychopath.

Does this mean in Hunduism you can 'sin' from birth to death and with the mere recitation of a few words you are in the clear. Sorry to say but it is incongruous to think the universe/existence works like this. It would be as easy to say, sin all your life and doing nothing will clear all karma and you will be freed from rebirth. It is total nonsense and every Hindu also knows this in their heart I am sure.

I literally read the oft cited Gandhi repeated mantra the moment he was shot yesterday. I am reading the TheTiBookOfLivDying In Tibetan Buddhism the moment of death and the preceding moments are seemingly important so yes Buddhism does have some similarity. Enlightenment at the time of death is only for the learned few though. And often a master is required, something that obviously few have. Though much merit can be achieved by having clarity and resting in the nature of mind, if you have a master doing Phowa (basically a visualization exercise to be ideally, deeply familiar with) it can help transference of consciousness into the "ground luminosity" basically the underlying fabric of existence as I see it.

I like the TTBOLD, it is opening something in me. It is religious and I shy from too much ritual, dogma, blind belief, do this and this will happen, simplistic fantasy kind of ideas. I can make up a virtuous practice myself right now but in reality it will do nothing (prayer for example, at best it seems like self psychological comfort or placebo, something in the place of nothing. Prayer never helped anyone, they died anyway etc. etc.)

All the books give something, it is not truth but some sign posts.

Today I have a very clear sense of every second being a decision. Every moment pregnant as a choice. It is crystal clear that when things go wrong is a moment for mindfulness on arresting the programmed angry, fearful reactions in annoying or dangerous situations. You often have split second to have awareness and attention in these moments. I hope that sense can be carried and can have some longevity as this is a real challenge.

It also has an authenticity as this needs to be carried through every moment of life, not just sitting in a room meditating in isolated, peace and quiet, which is actually very easy once you have had a go for a while. I now realize actual practice is every second of your life.

 

If it is the one that I am thinking about, karma played no part in that air crash. A mechanical failure caused the rudder to go hard over and jam. It is a known problem with the aircraft and pilots can control it. In that case they had insufficient altitude.

 

Karma is a complex subject, to quote newbie-one, because it is a belief system that extends beyond logic and facts. In fact that makes it so complex it almost makes no sense of all because the supposition is based on belief, not evidence and if we are not meant to discuss it that makes it even more difficult to drill down on it's morality, effects on people in this life and how they may treat others (I think of the caste system in India, Brahmins vs untouchables in India as one example) judgements that are made etc.

We can say there is cause and effect quite comfortably, in many cases extremely obvious, I breath in, I stay alive, I no longer breath I die, cause and effect. Across lives, well clearly this is where unless you have direct existential knowledge it is belief, open to vast interpretation, even beyond Buddhism or any religion.

 

Imho, asking the question isn't a problem, though how can one know the answer?

There is the question of the relationship between an event that is experienced and the karma of the one experiencing it. Then there is a separate question of whether one should have compassion or not.

One could say, the child has bad karma, and this is why they are starving. Therefore, one should not have compassion. One could also say that starvation did not necessarily occur because of their karma, but may be of benefit to them by clearing away their karma, therefore one should not have compassion.

Also, one could come to either of the above conclusions about the child's karma, but decide to have compassion.

I recommend either not making a judgement about the child's karma, or making a judgment that allows you to have compassion, whatever that judgment may be.

People will certainly be sad if a loved one dies. However, it could be interpreted as something beneficial to them, and typically loved one's tend to believe the deceased has received some beneficial afterlife.

In the case of the Mexican child who died in a plane crash, the point is that you don't necessarily have to interpret their death as an adverse event for them, or as being the result of bad karma.

Yes. Applying the notion that there is some benefit to a disliked event would probably be most beneficial when interpreting one's own personal experiences. Seeing things this way, one can at least say there is a benefit of having inner peace from interpreting things this way.

It might take time, but the mind can be trained.

I think there is a story of man who committed many sins, but named his child after a God. Remembering the name of God at the moment of his death, he attained liberation.

Another man, hearing this story, named all of his children after Gods. When he was dying, his children were standing by his deathbed. He then asked "If all of you are here, then who is minding the family store?", and at that moment he died, since his mind was on the family store and not God, he did not attain liberation.

There is also the story of Krishna and Kamsa. Kamsa was always cruel, but his mind was also always on Krishna, because he was obsessed with killing him. When Krishna beat him to death, liberation was also conferred on Kamsa.

There is also the story of Maha Bali. He was a benevolent, but also Asura (demon) king. One day a dwarf came to him. There was some reason why the dwarf was offered a boon by Maha Bali, but I forget what the reason was. The dwarf asked for as much territory as he could cover with three steps. It seemed so little, so the king encouraged him to ask for more, but that was all the dwarf wanted, so the king granted him this wish.

The dwarf was actually an avatar of Vishnu, and having been granted his wish, grew to incredible size. In the first step, he covered all the world. In the second step, he covered the entire universe. The (now enormous) dwarf then reminded the king he had been promised all the territory he could cover with three steps, but as he had covered everything with the first two steps, what would be offered for the third? The king then laid down his own head, which the dwarf placed his foot upon, and sent Maha Bali to hell. (In a least some versions, Maha Bali eventually gets liberation after spending some time in hell).

I'm not sure how these stories are (or should be) interpreted. In the first story, it might be interpreted that whether or not you get to remember mantra or God at the moment of death is determined by previous life karma, or some other factor.

It could also be interpreted that the doing of good deeds, and not doing bad deeds is not necessarily the sole, or even primary means by which one achieves liberation.

Karma yoga is considered one of three primary spiritual paths in Hinduism. Karma yoga is not simply the doing of good deeds, but doing them with an attitude of selfless service, and then accepting the results. So it may be the attitude with which one does a thing is actually more important than that which one does.

For Buddhists, I think doing good deeds is considered a form of dualistic grasping, but it's a positive form of dualistic grasping that will eventually lead to liberation.

If Hindus didn't believe in shortcuts to liberation, there would not be hundreds of millions of them showing up to the Kumbh Mela.

I'm glad you like it.

That's really good. You can spare yourself a lot of agony if you can give up negative emotional reactions that are not helpful to you.

 

Karma if it even exists, seems to involve more thinking as we can see. I would like to reply to some of the points but I can
see it is entirely meaningless to do so. The only thing I can say briefly is instantaneous is not in time.

And arresting a habitual reaction is the ideal I am not saying I can, have or will do this. Saying it is the easy part : )

I will add I read in TTBOLAD "Even a sinner can be purified of his Karma if he has a deep connection
with hi/her master at the time of death" or very similar words, suggesting that Buddhism does have this parallel.

TTBOLAD does rather keep on banging on about when the master introduces you do the nature of mind. Which somewhat undermines
the usefulness of the book to anyone who does not have a Tibetan spiritual master on hand. This reinforces my sense that this is between you and existence and no one else.

It's a good book but some of it is stories about how wonderful their tradition is which is a nice warm read but absolutely no help at all to the reader.

Time and time again I come back to this moment, right now in reality and what you do in awareness, if you want to understand existence / reality one must first be present in its essence unfolding to have any chance at all. Truth is not in a book relating to masters you cannot be with.

Also words are one massive, gigantic, huge problem, words are the past and so is any thought (or the future) and are going nowhere to help the you that is not you operate at the fore of life.

Time is short, this much I have realized.

 

Ironic from here, but it's very clear words are a tangible obstruction to this. Merely seeds, again getting somewhere, nowhere, back to here and now.

Put enough effort in, and/or non effort and we all get somewhere, nowhere, which is here, cause there is nowhere else. This is it.

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TTBOLAD - When I read the sinner can have Karma cleared by the sinner's Master at death time it undermines the entirety of the rest of the book. I wonder if the author ever saw that ? Not having a Tibetan master/disciple 9.999999999pct of world population, means the books instruction is weakened and undermined greatly.

It takes all your power and hands it over to a master, that is extremely undermining of all suggestion that you are already it. (Buddha nature as expressed over and again in TTBOLAD)

That is a real shame. This is why you should never just believe or accept, belief and acceptance without question, is obstruction, whether you can see that or not. Be very aware of this. A warm read but there are self undermining elements in it.

 

I am on the meat and bones of TTBOLAD, the Bardo's, very beautifully described but also miss the opportunities as the very vast majority of us will and
you descend into hell like realms, and all projections of your own ignorant state of mind. Horrific, extremely scary and could keep you up at night so be warned before reading past page 250 or so.

I do not know what to say about this really, I feel rather similarly about it as I did when I read it the first time.

There is not a great deal you can do to change things, be 'good' and that's about it. Cause most people on earth do not have a Tibetan master to speak with let alone have a very close long term relationship with and who will not be there for 49 days or less reading the Tibetan book of the dead to help you recognize the various stages you are supposed to be going through once you are dead, if you die before them. Essentially you are on your own. I suppose you can read this book and the Tibetan Book of the Dead (a different book to The Tibetan Book of living and dying just for clarification) I suppose summarizing and memorizing salient information relating to colors to focus on trust and head towards and colors to avoid in any of the recognizable states might be of some use.

Might be worth a go as an insurance policy !

Interesting and slightly useful book but big focus on something we do not have access to. A Tibetan master. Good luck everyone, we'll be needing it.