Let's make it simple. Let's divide the US population into two groups. Bigots and Nonbigots. This is a countercultural forum. More or less. I'm reading a history of the 60s. Two major factors drove the progressivism and counterculture of the 60s. Civil rights and Vietnam. Let's focus on civil rights. Of course Vietnam also relates to civil rights. Minorities and the disadvantaged were disproportionate in the front lines. As in the military today. What the draft no longer assures our socioeconomic structure does anyway. You read how bigots all over the country resisted civil rights. From pouring soft drinks on the heads of nonviolent protestors at lunch counters during sit-ins to muggings to murders. With police corruption and elected officials standing in doorways preventing people from exercising any kind of equal rights. The whole nine yards. It makes you wonder. What kind of people are these that oppressed, humiliated, beat and murdered others because of skin color?* It makes you wonder how anything was ever accomplished. It certainly wouldn'thave been if it weren't for activists. Protestors. Agitators. And the federal government. Federal laws and federal troops that enforced civil rights. (The federal government wasn't much better back then than it is today. But it was some better. It was in different hands than it is now.) Bigots. Especially in the South. The South used to be solidly Democratic. But not Democrats like nowadays. Dixiecrats. Bigots. Perpetrators of racism. What happpened to the Dixiecrats? What happened to the South? They became Republicans. The South became Republican. That's not all. People of a similar mindset all over the country became Republican. And with that the Republican Party took over the nation. Which is where it stands today. And with this pedigree, this background, this lineage -- what would you expect of the Republican Party? In a word it wouldn't be farfetched to expect: bigotry. In those days, the days of the 60s, bigotry referred primarily to a racial phenomenon. But one can understand obviously that bigotry relates to a broader concept. Bigotry broadly speaking relates to inequality. For some reason there is always a group of people who for some reason or another feels that another group of people must have less. Because of their skin color. Because the're gay. Because they're not educated. Because they don't live on the right side of the tracks. Because their IQ is lower. Because they're not star athletes. Because they don't work hard enough. Because their daddys arent rich. Always some reason. Always some excuse why some persons should have less than others. Is it any wonder Republicans have worked to undo affirmative action. Is it any wonder they don't want universal healthhcare. Is it any wonder they don't want some people to get married. Is it any wonder they don't want to pay taxes to make sure those who have more keep it and those who have less stay that way? Is it any wonder they flock to churches where it's taught that some deserve to go to heaven and some deserve to go to hell? Is any of this really any wonder? There's no reason to resort to fancy sociological analyses. We live in a nation of two kinds. Bigots and Nonbigots. ------- *Primarily people with little exposure education experience. It's not their faults. And preconceptions die hard. -------
Well you're just a political science genious, so anyone that is a Republican is a rascist, so I guess the minorties that vote Republican are just self-haters?
Bigots come in all kinds. From the cocky egotistical intellectual momma's boy, to the guttersnipe. None can claim total immunity. But, at least some try to be more fair and accept all people as equals. While others just deny that cuz they'd never marry a ...... that dont mean they're bigots. lol they are BIGots.
Everyone, and I mean every single human being on the face of the Earth, and those floating around in space too, is a bigot, in one way or another. Whether it's sex, race, religion, political ideology, location of birth or residence, personal habits, sexuality, financial success, taste in music or beer or whatever, dressing habits, personal grooming, profession, accent, level of education, family atmosphere, bigotries, or whatever, everyone is a bigot. EVERYONE! As long as you let people live their own lives as they see fit, I don't really see any problem with it. After all, it's not like bigotry is ever going away, there isn't a single person on the face of the earth who can even get rid of their own bigotry, let alone anyone else's. All one really can do is simply allow others the freedom to live their lives as they wish, regardless of personally held bigotries. As long as you aren't hurting anyone, you can hold whatever silly notions you want in your head. Now, if you will excuse me I must take a shower before I go to bed. It seems that the people I go to school with are bigoted against people who allow themselves to stink.
You're not addressing the real problem. If you want to do that what you could say is "Working to end bigotry is better than condoning or promoting bigotry." The important point is that a healthy society wants to cultivate people who want to end bigotry and who want to discourage factors, as I pointed out in my post, that contribute to bigotry. And then there won't be any people who hate bigots and your problem is solved.
Well that's the catch isn't it. "As long as you're not hurting anyone." Come on you're giving up too easily. People's attitudes can be changed. Social structures and mechanisms can definitely be changed. One wonders what tune you would have been singing in the days of Jim Crow. Maybe one called "Letting The Baby Drown In The Bathwater" but I hope not.
Well, every assumption starts with an ass. But I say unto you, "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." I know I'm a bigot. Although I do my best not to let it interfere with my day-to-day interpersonal relationships, I cannot help but harbor feelings of bigotry towards: religious fundamentalists, lazy people, know-it-alls, people who don't shower, liars, people who talk shit behind others' backs and a whole long list of other pet peeves that I could never list in entirety. I guess I'm also very slightly bigoted in regards to race, as while I wouldn't rule out other races for romantic relationships, for some reason I tend to be particularly attracted to women of Irish, Middle Eastern, and Jewish descent. But, as long as you let me and those I care about do our thing, you are free to live your life as you wish. I'm a bit of an ass online sometimes because it's fun, but in real life I'm a pretty nice guy. Now tell me SDS, are you, or are you not a bigot? It's ok, I won't hold it against you if you are.
JWAM why bother pointing out that every assumption starts with an ass? Don't you believe everyone is an ass? Isn't it just like saying "Everyone who ever makes an assumption breathes oxygen"? Big deal. And JWAM I say unto you "Let him who wants to build a lasting institution lay the first brick." Whether a person is a bigot or not depends on the definition of bigot. By my own definition I'm not a bigot. By your definition everybody's a bigot. The problem with saying "Everyone is a bigot" is the same as the problem with saying "Everyone is an ass." It fails to make any useful distinctions. "Everyone is red." "Everyone is green." The cases can be made but instantly you've got a situation where you're saying nothing. Even worse is saying "Everyone is a bigot and everyone will always be a bigot" because this statement serves the assertion "Since we'll always have bigotry we don't need to do anything about bigotry". Is it or is it not your position JWAM that since we'll always have bigotry we don't need to do anything about bigotry? I won't hold it against you if you say we don't need to do anything about bigotry JWAM but I will try to change your mind. JWAM you need to lay the first brick. No pun intended.
No, we don't need to do anything about bigotry, even if you don't count socially acceptable bigotry, as you don't. Thoughts and speech are private matters, if they are not free what you have is tyranny. Discrimination, hate crimes, mindless violence, these things can be dealt with without instituting some monstrous and tyrannical thought police, they are actions which bring actual harm unto people. Basically, my mind is my own business, as is everybody's, and if you don't like it you just need to learn to deal with it, because as long as what I or anybody else does doesn't harm somebody you have absolutely no right to impose your morals or ideals on me and my mind. Oh yeah, and I called you an ass for the jim crow comment, because you assumed that because I believe in free speech and free thought I believe in discrimination and violence. I just used a handy and appropriate little saying to say it.
"People are bigots, especially in the south." "Republicans are biggots." "People who disagree are bigots." "I'm right and whoever disagrees must be a bigot." You should be on talk radio... people enjoy this dumbening of commentary you're perpetuating.
Hmm aren't most Neo-Nazi's found in the pacific northwest? Those silly southern states like oregon and washington.
References to the South and the Republican Party being nests of bigotry were made because the original post is built on an historical framework. It's a history many would like to whitewash or deny but until present generations are deceased and the texts rewritten few will dispute the facts. HonkeyTonk I was careful to mention people of a bigoted predispostion all over the country becoming Republicans so don't feel like I'm neglecting the existence of NeoNazis in the pacific NW. The problem is that most of the response in this thread is a straw man. A fake issue set up because of an inability to deal with the real concern. The straw man fake issue? Bigoted ideas. The real issue? Bigoted ACTIONS. I don't give a fuck what your ideas are as long as you get up in the morning get your act together straighten your collar and go out doing the right thing. "My mind is my own business if you don't like it you need to learn to deal with it you have absolutely no right to impose your morals or ideals on me or my mind". Eat your straw man JWAM. Because every bigoted ACTION you take is my fucking business and that of every fucking body else. Of course bigoted attitudes can lead to bigoted actions. A question arises as to what the motivation is in attacking a thread attacking bigotry. Who are these guys? The thought police trying to impose their morals and ideals? The Republican Party? "In defense of bigotry... " We've come a long way baby. I know it's not my ideas it's ME that's the problem! Well the straw man has a second purpose. I already made allusion to it. If one pulls off the straw man stunt then people go away thinking "Yep everybody's a bigot bigotry's universal we don't need to do anything about bigotry." Meaning bigoted IDEAS. And then there's a subtle sleight of hand and the next thing you know it's used as a defense of bigoted ACTIONS. The next time I add to this thread which probably won't be for a couple days I want to get past all this crap and focus in on what's really important. Which is bigoted action. But just what constitutes bigoted action? As I already said it's related to EQUALITY. Here my ideas are really radical and people will find plenty to disagree with. JWAM has certified this post as "socially acceptable bigotry". And maybe I SHOULD go on fucking talk radio.
Well, Neonazis or excesive conservatives are clearly bigots. But the promoters of "polithical corectness" which is a liberal invention, as far as I know, what are they? Any form of censorship, no matter its reasons, hide some kind of bigotry.
Sandu I haven't thought much about political correctness so I can't give you a full answer right now. This has to do with free speech and it would require careful evaluation and I'm not going to get into it right now. In general I am in favor of free speech but there may be some cases where expression should be limited. I would probably disagree however that the motivation behind political correctness is bigotry. I never added the next installment to this thread here it is a week later if I'm ever going to do it I better do it now. The issue I wanted people to think about is equality. I say in the original post "Bigotry relates to inequality." My view is that society should strive for as little inequality as possible. Promotion of inequality is bigotry. It's admittedly a totally idealistic position. It's a question of where one wants to draw the line. How much inequality should be tolerated if any? Two hundred years ago the concept of freedom for blacks was unthinkable. But attitudes changed. One hundred years ago voting rights for women was unthinkable. But attitudes changed. Fifty years ago the idea of having to put up ramps on every building in the nation to provide handicapped access was unthinkable. (During the Reagan Administration then Secretary of Energy James Watt made with contemptuous regard for equality a comment about a committee that included, in his words, "Two blacks a jew and a cripple..." It cost him his job.) But attitudes changed. Today homosexual marriage is unthinkable in the minds of many. But attitudes may change. And one day people may come to agree that many other inequalities need to be corrected. You don't hear much about equality any more. People aren't interested in equality. It's not what's being taught by the bigots in charge. What you hear instead is that such and such a group and such and such an individual merits less for such and such a reason. But merit ultimately reflects only emotional disposition. When someone says "So and so deserves less" all it really means is "I desire so and so to have less." Which all other things being equal is a fundamentally immoral position. The myth of merit in many cases is used to promote bigotry.
Well, some inequalities come from nature. Humans are not alike, so total equality is not possible. But when I criticised polithical corectness is because on various reasons it limits the freedom of speech. Some intentions are OK, but others just hide new types of discrimination. Which is bigotry. Also you should think that only debates, and not censorship, will solve problems like the inter-racial relationships. Look what happened in the Eastern Block. Old inter-ethnical disputes were frozen under something very similar to polithical corectness. When communism fealt appart old conflicts re-emmerged with renewed power and in some places, like Nagorno Karabach, South Osetia, Abhazia, Tchetchnya, Transdnister and especially Yugoslavia they degenrated in bloody wars.
Two things. The fact that some inequalities are biological doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be addressed. Some can be palliated by extrabiological means (e.g. handicapped accessibility). And technology continues to advance. I agree that perfect equality can't be achieved. But a lot more can and needs to be done. If political correctness saved lives under the communist system maybe that was a good thing. That people may have natural tendencies toward doing harm doesn't mean you give them free rein. But I agree that free speech is a complicated issue.
isn't it bigoted to sit there calling others bigots. I mean your making assumptions that everyone who has any idea that you disagree with reguarding human differences a bigot. I don't want to date outside my race and that to some ppl makes me Archie god damn Bunker. To me if you want to be in an interracial relationship thats all good as gravy to me though. Something that I could not do for various reasons would be just fine for someone else. EVERYTHING!!!!! is subjective except some very few concrete facts of science like gravity holds people down on Earth.
Is it bigoted for me to sit here calling other people bigots? If some people are depriving other people of equality then people need to know about it. There's intolerance and then there's intolerance. Intolerance of good things is bad. Intolerance of bad things is good.
