Why.?

Be here now. To spend ones time eternally caught in the reccurring loop of questioning existance is to live in one's head and not in the WORLD. Every moment of life is like a miracle (note the word "like") and it's beauty trancends the ability of normal language to describe. Life is Art - hence, the Universe is Art. This would make you, as both participant (actor) and observer (audience) an integral part of the ongoing improvisational dance (if you will pardon the excess of metaphors) that is taking place in the now.

To quote a song I've heard (though, admittedly it is probably so over-quoted, today as to seem trite - I'll use it anyway because I find it to be the best expression, to me, for the moment): "I hope you dance!" Even the trite, the kitch of our everyday and seemingly mundane existance is pregnant with meaning (or it wouldn't have become cliche in the first place). If you light a fire under it, treating it like an alchemical process, it explodes with a myriad of new and deeper meanings.

There is a word in sanskrit: Lila. This word defies any easy translation into the English language. It is a complex and beautiful concept. If you truely wish to begin "living and experiencing the universe," my suggestion is that you research and meditate upon the meaning of this word and how it might apply to you - then put the results of your meditation/ruminations into play.

 

It seems very natural to question the origins of our existence as this is simple intellectual curiousity. Einstien once said (parapharsing) "The question is not if god created the universe but whether he had a choice". What if the Big Bang therory is correct and what if the universe collapses over time into nothingness again, only to expand into yet another universe with different laws of physics innumerable times? That may mean we exist in this universe (I have read) because it is the only universe in which we can exist in with the existing laws of physics.


As far as purpose, life only has purpose if you choose to give it purpose. Purpose is a man made idea, like religion or politics. Purpose does not exist outside of the human brain.

And yes all of this speculation will never result in an answer because the answer is unknowable.

 

free will is an illusion. Just because we think that we have a choice, that we could act differently if we wanted to, doesn't mean much. Reason is different from action. Our circumstances dictate what path we will go on as much as any physical laws will dictate the path that one billard ball will take upon contact with another.

 

Been there, heard it, said it. But then, there's what I've come to call the 'Prometheus Factor.' We think ahead. We anticipate, we plan and we imagine that we have an effect, even if it often seems in hind sight, that it was always fated to be that way. That's the power of the now. Heisenberg called it the uncertainty principle and Schrodinger used it to keep an imaginary cat in suspended animation in a box. We are a part of the becoming of the universe...

Our most powerful effect on our world is that we crystallize reality by our experience of it, and through our observations. We exist for this purpose at the very least. Our knowledge of the physical laws of the universe bears this out (at least for the moment).

Though we seem constantly drawn toward more pro-active purposes, we cannot ever know whether we are 'correct' in our assumption of those purposes until after the fact, and even then, we can't be certain. We have beliefs about the Universe and we set about to 'prove' them right or wrong. But all too often we selectively (conciously or unconciously) filter the data we recieve to prove exactly what we thought.

 

Well, you are not alone in your belief. The fans of Psychologist Dr. Skinner have done many experiments that support the theory that we are no more than animals conditioned by our history to act the way we do. I find the concept to be reasonable, but my own faith does not accept it cuz it means that this whole exercise is for show, like a tv rerun. What I have seen tells me that this is more than a maze, and we are more than lab rats.
I have defied physical laws myself, and seen others do the same, so either the laws are wrong, or they dont dictate the result all the time. I agree we cannot always act the way we think we should, but I believe that the choices I will make, to turn left or right, are mine to make.
I feel that I have free will, and the only power that the Spirit may have that is related is the power to see which choices I willl make.

 

Free will is one of those phrases that sounds nice but even if it existed, would it be something we would want? It would undermine religion and morality. Maybe it isn't very flattering, but we are animals, what applies to rats can be applied to us. We are all influenced by motives and circumstances. Intelligence and consciousness acts on the will to move it toward certain actions. You might think you have a choice of acting in another way but wouldn't you be going against your own will in doing so?

 

Yes

Religion is just a crutch anyway.

Egocentricism is all that would makes this a questionable statement. Egocentricism, although comforting, leads to distortion, leading to inauthenticity.

True, but that is far different from supernatural influence, as I assume this thread is probably about.

No, no you wouldn't.

 

if you believe it was created, how do you know that...what's the basis of your belief....the bible, a storybook, what?

if it was created, perhaps it was, to look as though it evolved

 

when faced with choices, we would like to believe that we have free will. In hindsight, our action was determined by motives and circumstances as surely as the path of one billard ball is determined from contact with another by certain laws of physics

 

Mati

Incorrect.
Human choice is not newtonian mechanics
Our choices offer multiple paths. Billiards does not.

A billiard ball one set in motion will follow it's path..

A human action may change at any time . Depending on the "CHOICE"
of the human.
Such a choice is not in the realm of determanism...it is a thing of emotion and reason..
Occam may choose to pull down his pants while falling off a cliff.
NO WAY this can be a determanistic event.

Those who say we have no free will...that all is determined.
Are the ones too scared to choose..and want it all decided for them.

The two prime human motivations are fear and self interest.

Occam

 

So emotion and reason are determining factors along with physical determinism?

What if we are prepared in a way that we will choose what is right for us? This means we can choose with faith that the choices we make are correct. I am not scared to choose what I choose, for one of the things I have chosen is not to fear making choices, knowing full well that my deus prepares a wide path before me that I will not stumble away from.

Aren't fear and self interest determining factors (along with other determining factors beyond fear and self interest)?

 

No, can't agree with you. It is not because of fear of chosing which makes me believe in everything being determined but rather believing in it removes the fear which may or may not be derived from the choices.

To understand my way of reasoning, ponder the meaning of this narration from Muhammed, the son of 'Abdullah(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)

Young man, I shall teach you some words [of advice] ... Know that if the Nation were to gather together to benefit you with anything, it would benefit you only with something that Allah had already prescribed for you, and that if they gather together to harm you with anything, they would harm you only with something Allah had already prescribed for you.

Knowing and adhering to this most certainly removes anxiety and fear because no matter what adversity befalls me I should not despair but take it with patience and endurance, knowing that it was written for me long before my birth.

And by the way Occam, you should'nt have said:
"Those who say we have no free will...that all is determined."

but rather :

"Those who say we have no free will and those who say we have and believe that all is determined." because believing in both is what I do.

 

*

 

Some people didn't know gravity existed until after Newton 'discovered' it. Pretty funny that something can be right in front of you your whole life and you don't notice it.

There are books that have teachings about God, just like there are science books that have teachings about gravity. Like the concept of Gravity, it is easier (for some people) to have a human teacher explain the concepts of God instead of just reading a book, not to mention that human interaction is an entertaining method of enlightenment (just like books for some people).

Joker.

 

Kharakov

One small problem
The books about gravity speak of an existant law of reality.
That law and its rules can be demonstrated to ALL who wish it.
At ANY time...and the results are always the SAME...

The books of religion,, which speak of a god...are all different.
No one god is the same and NONE OF THEM can actually actually be
supported by existant phenomena.

Religious people tend to IGNOR the other religions...
Occam can not. For they all EXIST [as human organisations]
So the HINDU textbooks are just as VALID to occam as the CHRISTIAN
textbooks..

Will the real god please step forward....for it seems the textbooks are contradictory.


Occam

 

The books about God speak of an existing entity, although to really learn about God you must be taught that you are being intentionally taught by God.

Actually, they are supported by existing phenomena and are part of it (existing phenomena). The thing is, they are different because God has a deep personality- God is a complex being at the same time that God is very simple. Flies love playing in turds, which shows some of the great variety of joys that God provides God's creation. Personally, I find flies to be a little silly, cuz they love turds. I can't claim to be of a higher order than flies though, because I love boobies, well, womens bodies, technically, really hot womens bodies, and there are many things in nature that would laugh at that if they understood it.

Well, they are what God provided the Hindu culture. There is this sweet Indian lady at this 7-11 that always gives me the sweetest smiles. I love her.

Of course the textbooks are not contradictory to existence or God if you understand them.

I'm not sure if I really understand the last thing I wrote in this post.

 

Definitions are important and the word "determine" was a poor choice and leads to all sorts of inappropriate ideas such as "god" etc pushing us around. I should have said something like- "there are no actions of the mind that are unaccountable". Intelligible qualities can be attributed to the will just as well as they can be applied to matter(this is not to say that there may be some qualities of matter, unlike the mind, that are as yet, unaccountable. Human nature has its' patterns and we can no more doubt that if we jump off a cliff, the force of gravity will act on us, although we might find it necessary(call it choice if you will}, to take off our pants and use them as a parachute

 

Mati

Really. There are no actions of the mind that are unaccountable?
You sugest that mind is wholely determanistic.
Does this apply to beethovens 5th or VanGoghs sunflowers?

Yes..much human action is determaned by memory/habit.

But many functions of mind are SYNERGIES...Imagination..creativity,,
humour, passion.

If there is no choice...Then there can be no purpose.

Without choice..even christ on a cross is part of a prewritten script.
And all reality is a machine.

Occam and humanity do not exist to follow a script...
Occam believes humanity and all other sentient life exists TO WRITE IT

Occam

PS..Not a parachute,,,but to leave behind a mystery while gravity drags one to inevitable death.. that occam will not be able to answer. a LAST JOKE.

 

Occam- I had to jump in here.

There can be purpose behind the existence of beings without choice. You can create emotions that well up within them by creating the circumstances in which those emotions arise (such as X on a cross). The purpose of these beings existence is to feel the emotions that their creator has created them to feel.

Christ on a cross was part of a pre written script- how else could prophecy forshadow something accurately?

Even the thought of reality being a machine gives rise to certain feelings. The fact that reality is designed to give rise to certain emotions shows intent behind all of the mechanistic perfection going on.

No more JokeS!