A Point I Want To Make

Today I was listening to the radio while driving back home.

There was an argument about what drug users deserve and what drug dealers deserve.

It serves as good material for a point I want to make.

One person would venture an opinion and then someone else would offer a different perspective.

One person said "I think users should be rehabilitated but I don't care what you do to dealers."

Another person raised the issue some users are well off educated and should know better while some dealers have more or less been forced into their trade by unfortunate circumstances.

Pretty soon things became very complicated and one didn't know what to think. One couldn't really say who deserved what. Things had lost their moorings.

Things had lost their moorings for a reason.

That's the problem with thinking in terms of merit.

DON'T THINK IN TERMS OF MERIT.

INSTEAD THINK IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU WANT TO ACCOMPLISH.

So what should be done with drug users? Well what all do you want to accomplish with respect to drug users?

And what should happen to drug dealers? Well what all do you want to accomplish with respect to drug dealers?

And then of course the next question is: What willl get you where you want to go in terms of what you want to accomplish?

Another example. "What grade does this student deserve on this test?" Well what is it you are trying to accomplish by assigning the student a grade? Wil assigning such and such a grade -- or any grade at all -- accomplish what we want?

Everytime you hear the words "deserve" or "merit" a red flag should go up. Merit is NOT the right way to look at a problem.

The right way to look at things is in terms of what you want to accomplish and how to get there.

One still has to deal with the complexities of the situation, but the advantage is that one keeps attention directed toward what one really wants to accomplish instead of thinking in terms of a vague imponderable like "merit".

("Merit" which, upon analysis, and I'm not going to get into the details right here and now, turns out not to be what one thinks it is.)

 

Yes here I am perpetuating my own thread.

Sixteen people have looked at this so far. No comments yet.

It's OK.

Not bad for a concept completely new to most people.

This is revolutionary material after all.

It goes against everything people have ever been taught who were raised in this selfish competitive bigoted meritocracy. Another kick in the ass to the old law-of-the-jungle instinct -- that anachronism superseded by evolutionary genes coding for cooperation. The better to achieve great societies and great things.

It's going to take some time and getting used to.

So look at things this way. As follows.

Look at history. At the history of discrimination and bigotry. At the history of unfairness.

It used to be things like race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation practically you name it -- each has been used as PRETEXT for DISCRIMINATION.

And all have been rejected as legitimate justifications for unfair treatment.
(Except by bigots.) As history has advanced all these pretexts have been or will be REJECTED by evolutionary human beings of intelligence and moral conscience.

So I advise that "MERIT" -- the fallacy of so-called "MERIT" -- is the last falsehood inevitably consigned to the scrapheap of history used as a pretext for discrimination and inequality.

You will answer "But merit is the ESSENCE of why one person SHOULD be treated better or worse than another." Wrong. It's just a false notion. It's just how you've been brought up.

Here's a simple exercise: In your everyday activities never use the words "merit" or "deserve". You'll have no problem at all. Just say what you fucking WANT to do. Nothing could be easier.

Get out of the habit of thinking in terms of merit. It'll be better for you and the next guy.

If I establish a nucleus of realization in even one person it will be well worth it. Once one has seen the light there's no going back.

 

All I can say is "drugs are bad kids.. mmmkay".

I think the whole drug thing is stupid. The police making something less illegal on the basis they can't stop people doing it. Thats the truth with the cannabis issue over here. They can't stop murder either so should we legalise that.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Over here in Scotland they have just put in place a no smoking ban in all public places (enclosed) such as pubs, cafes, restaurants, truck cabs (? why), bus stops, football stadiums etc.

At the same time last year the government passed a law stating that it was less illegal to smoke cannabis.

Where are we heading with all this. You can use cannabis but not smoke it?

Personally I partly agree with the no smoking thing and partly disagree. I don't smoke so the fact that I'll get home from the pub now and my clothes won't smell like shit is kind of good. The fact that the pub will be empty isn't so good.

Why is there a smoking ban you might ask? Well its workers rights. People who work in bars have the right to work in a safe environment and passive smoking kills. Fair enough but the guys that smoke in the pub and drink heavily are now doing it in the comfort of their living room with their kids running about. Well done on that score.

People have a choice to work in bars, kids don't have a choice about their parents. If the person doesn't want to work in a smoky bar get a different job.

I think it should be down to each given place whether they make it smoke free. I go into a pub and I see it as a given that the pub will be smokey. My choice. My life. My death when it goes tits up.

With regards to drugs I say how far do you go with it?

Personally I think the drug user is every bit as guilty as a drug dealer and I'd have the same sentence for both crimes. This will give the user something to think about the very first time they consider taking drugs of any sort.

Why should the dealer take all the blame aren't they just servicing demand?

My stance on drugs is hard because I don't want my son walking around picking up used syringes and having to walk around a collapsed user on a Saturday morning.

i don't want my house burgled by the addict who needed one more fix.

Make the sentences for crime tougher. All crime not just drug crime.

I'd get rid of all this parole crap. 20 years means 20 years son. Don't want to do 20 years don't do the crime. You rip the slates off the roof in protest you get wet when it rains.

 

Deserts are arbitrary- we just assign rewards or punishments to people based on perference. Ask someone why a person deserves to be punished, and you'll get nothing but circular reasoning.

I've long thought in terms of consqeuences or results, and I don't think it's that uncommon to think this way, even if most people still think it terms of what a person "deserves". It makes a whole lot more sense, becuase in the end quality of life is all thats important and worry about what a person deservs definitely doesn't always help that.

 

hello gary,
I only read a few paragraphs of your response because it made me bored. What made drugs wrong in the first place? It's the messed up societies in this world. The drug problem won't be solved until we see it is not a problem. The govt wants to protect our health and minds by stopping pot use (and all drugs), yet they slaughter thousands of innocent people over things like money and oil. The govt that gave us our values, gave them to us to help them out, not for our benifit. People are told drugs are wrong, because they help create new perspectives. When new perspectives are seen there is a huge threat to the order of the world. Think of every great accomplishment of mankind, they are all shifted perspectives. From galalao to freud to john lennon, to MLK, to kennedy, to christianity, buddhism, hinduism, all religions. Everything great is born from a fresh new perspective. We are breainwashed into believing drugs are terrible because hitler (Bush and other leaders) wants to burn our books so we won't have the knowledge to overthrow them and know truth.

KEEP SMOKIN!
googly moogly

 

so the guy that holds up the local grocery shop with a shotgun because he needs money for a fix. Is that ok?

 

wide view on drugs eh?

maybe the cost of drugs is sooo high, because it is illegal? so the only way to stop the holding up of a shop, is to legalize some drugs??

i am not advocating drug usage, well not in everybody case, but its totally personal, and i will not have a government law telling me what i am doing is wrong, if i am just mellowing out, and use it for connecting to myself

 

what about the guy who holds up the local grocery shop with a shotgun because he needs money for his perscription drugs,or his lithium or his morgage,car payment,new harley, or simply feed his family should we make these things illigal too??

 

This isn't a black and white world. The 60 year old cancer patient doesn't deserve the same punishment for a crime as the man selling crack to kids outside school.

That Rush Limbaugh line of thinking is rediculous, and would have landed his fat ass in jail 20 years. And when your teenager brings a dime back into your home it could do the same for you.

It isn't a government's job to turn society into a perfect people or to discipline us into being someone's, or a group of people's, vision of perfect. A utopia is unrealistic, operating like we expect people to be perfect is unrealistic - we will never ever be perfect, no matter how harsh you are on criminals. What our government should do is realize people are imperfect, and be there to help make things right when those imperfections affect eachother.

Basically I am saying that it isn't a gov'ts job to operate like people should be what they "WANT" - who exactly would be "they" that got to decide what we "want" anyways? And how do we know their "wants" are the absolute right way to go for humanity? Unless you like oppressive regimes, this doesnt sound good to me. A gov't should operate within reality, they should operate like people are what they are. Society is much too large a beast to be tamed and moulded by any government, and when they try it causes oppression and suffering.

We're not students or children of the government, after all.

 

Capn Danger check and see if your private message option is enabled and I'll comment on the above. If you don't want it enabled I'll comment here.

 

There are always going to be people who want to try or use drugs. Especially if they're illegal. The lust for the forbidden syndrome.

When drugs are illegal there's always a concern about relative safety.

It's better to have drugs legal and distributed by an authorized and reliable agency. This allays the forbidden attraction, addresses safety and provides greater access to and influence over users. Switzerland has had a program providing heroin to addicts. It's OK as long as one is not harming others. Legalization minimizes harm to others.

This thread isn't about drugs of course. It's about the illusion of merit. Drugs in relation to merit was only example material. Merit may well be the cause of more human tragedy than drugs. Since there's considerable input about drugs though I wanted to comment.

But I'll be saying more about merit.

 

Gary, you poor poor boy. Pull your head out of the conservative arsehole and take a leaf out of SDS' book.

I thought the original post was very interesting. Maybe i'm misinterpreting or "off-topic" but gay marriage for example. People want to ban gay marriage under the guise that it will mean a "disintegration of the values that hold a family together in our society". Bullshit. Gay couples have demonstrated that they are perfectly capable of raising good kids....so no, its got nothing to do with "harm", its to do with some traditional based merit system that chooses what is right and what is wrong without looking at results.

Ultimately, I see the problems SDS are talking about the result of this rigid obsession with hierarchy we have in our society. On every level we have someone rather than teaching, guiding or providing the framework for the person "below" them, you have them telling them what is right and what is wrong and legislating their actions to the point they have no choice but to conform.

People often argue that a society couldn't function without a rigid central government because people are greedy, selfish and stupid and can't function without a ruler. Interesting, what does that say about the rulers? If a strong hierarchy already exists, what you have is naturally greedy, selfish and stupid people in great positions of power. So what does one naturally do in a position of power, they use every god given opportunity to avoid responsibility for their thoughts and actions.

Ok, so how this relates back to what SDS was saying, I think arguing a societal issue based on "merit" is a shortcut around taking responsibility for one's thoughts and actions. For example, the bigot. In its most simple form their argument is simply "Black people are bad, mmkay, they are the result of many problems in our state/city/country etc"..........but a real leader would ask, "what is the problem with my leadership, my people, what are WE doing to promote tolerance, what are our faults in the situation with black communities?" Its a pretty simple example, but do you get my message?

 

if i was in charge of the drug war .i would leave the drug laws and punishments as they are. illeagle. then i would lace any drugs intercepted by authorities with poison and reintroduce them into the drug users circle. no secerts about or anything tell the world your doing. should be ok since the drugs are illeagle. i mean who will poison drugs hurt? criminals. but the point is not to kill the fools its to be a deterent since nobody will ever know if the drugs they are buying are laced with poison or not.

simple answer to a simple problem. if they want to risk using fine let them risk it.


and the guy wanting 20 years sentence to actually be 20 years i totally agree and can even triple the capaticity of every prison in the US. rotating bunk shifts. 8 hours work, 8 hours cell time for sleep, and 8 hours excersize time prison yard or what ever it is they do with them.

i mean why should they all get a cushy ride while in prison? the rest of the world has to work why dont they?

it isnt like a night shift job would be crule or any thing i work 9pm to 5am 5 nights a week and a regular day job on top of that for 2 years straight and taking all overtime i could manage to stay awake for. just to pay off bills and debt i owed.

the least the criminal could do is the same to pay off their debt to the public.

 

Funny....cigarettes are scientifically proven to be more harmful than marijuana.

 

Utilitarianism yes but that's only part of it.

"The ends justify the means" -- no.

Hang around I'll be expanding on things.

 

If people smoked twenty joints a day they'd probably be as harmful as cigarettes. Breathing in smoke -- not a good idea. Thousands of toxic chemicals, products of combustion, carcinogens etc. Especially since it goes right into your bloodstream and blocks up arteries the #1 killing disease in the USA.

Brownies anyone?

This thread is NOT about drugs or blocked arteries but I guess I'll comment anyway if there's good reason. If you're interested in blocked arteries read the margarine thread. (A good idea.)

Don't use Crisco if you make brownies!

And now back to the REAL subject of this thread see my next post below answering Lying in a Field's other post. I never figured out how to do multiple quotes in the same reply so I have to respond to 'em one by one. Somebody needs to educate me.

 

I agree that a clear drugs- policy should get introduced in society, but first some thing should be straightened. justice can only be reached if tabacco and alcohol are considered as dangerouse drug as well and put on the list of illegal drugs, but that won´t happen. certainly not with alcohol. why not, the public-opinion disagrees. if it would get illegal, organized crime will flourish again just like happened in the past.

another more realististic strategy, in my opinion, is to make it legal and inform about the real dangers fo drug abuse. cuz I think there are a lot of lies being told about drugs abuse. what will happen is that people see that they should stay away from some kind of drugs. drug prices will drop. and therefor junks won´t have to commit crime to get their stuff and organized crime can´t get profits out of drugs anymore. because when the government produces drug, they can sell it below the cost price, always cheaper than their illegal competitors.

why I explain all this is to show my opinion about drugs policy, I think the current public opinion about drugs abuse and the war on drug is wrong and for the wrong reasons. people shouldn´t be pissed about the drug usage but about the industry behind it. which is the source of all problems in the world. mabey those people in the industry didn´t have a choice but to go in the industry. than we should try to prevent them from goin into the drug-industry by providing them the chance to do otherwise.

the biggest part of the drug problems are caused by the public opninion, if you want to solve the drug-problems, that is the thoing firts to change.

 

OK here we go. FINALLY back to the REAL subject of this thread.

Lying in a Field there's a whole going lot going on in your post here merit, choice, values, responsibility, leadership...

This is all stuff that needs to be talked about but it's too much to do all at once. It'll have to be step by step.

This thread starts out in a very simple way. It's just "Don't think in terms of merit think in terms of what you want to accomplish." What could be easier. It's totally simple! Just think in terms of what you want to do.

BUT --- it turns out what starts as totally simple has lots of ramifications. You don't know what they are yet. I do of course because I've been thinking about this stuff for years and it's my thread. Yes see I'm definitely headed someplace with this thread and I know where I'm headed.

What's not so easy however is to know what's the best next step to take. I know where I'm headed but I don't want to lose any fish on the line.

Me thinking out loud ... yes what's the best next step for me to take?

OK Lying in a Field (and everybody else) let's try this. This will also address part of your post.

Lying In A Field in your post you talk about "responsibility". Well it turns out that "responsibility" is a no-no just like merit! Don't think in terms of responsibility. Don't use the word "merit" and don't use the word "responsibility". DUMP the word "responsibility" it is a BAD word because just like "merit" it confuses the issues and screws things all up!

What to use in place of the word "responsibility"? Well what did we do with "merit"? We made "He deserves" into "I want". When I say someone "deserves" something what it REALLY means is that I have something I want to accomplish with respect to that person. Well it's the same with "responsibility". When you say "He is responsible" or someone is responsible all it really means is you want to do something to another person if they behave in a certain way. It means you want to encourage their behavior if they do as you like or you want to inhibit their behavior if the other person does not do as you like.

So "merit" and "responsibility" are the same kind of thing. It's not really what "he deserves" or "he is responsible for". What's really going on is what one wants to accomplish with respect to another person and what one wants to do to another person depending on that other person's behavior.

THERE'S A REASON FOR ALL THIS. WE ARE TAKING THE FOCUS OFF THE PERSON WHO IS BEING JUDGED AND PUTTING IT ON THE PERSON WHO IS DOING THE JUDGING. WE ARE TAKING THE FOCUS OFF THE PERSON WHO IS BEING IMPOSED UPON AND PUTTING ON THE PERSON WHO IS MAKING THE IMPOSITION.

So where does this leave us? It's totally simple we're right back to the main point of this thread where it all started. It not merit it's not responsibility it's nothing complicated at all it's just "What do you WANT to do to this other person." Nothing imponderable or abstract to confuse the issues like merit or responsibility.

A worthy question don't you think? What somebody wants to do to another person. That's an important matter. You thought it was merit or responsibility. It's not. It's just what you want to do to somebody else. And that's a fucking important matter.

So Lying in a Field, assuming you're following me, don't think in terms of responsibility (a term you use in your post) think in terms of what you want just like I advise doing with merit. That's the next step in where this thread is headed. There are lots of ramifications...

I don't want to lose any fish on the line. If even one person understands what I'm saying please give me some feedback and I will continue probably tomorrow.

 

Basically yes except nothing should be illegal not drugs not alcohol not even tobaco just education and trying to get people to limit use and limit harmful behavior. I'm not sure what you mean by "the industry behind it" but if you mean the pharmaceutical industry it does some good things (as well as some bad things) don't throw the baby out with the water.

This is turning out to be a double thread my main topic on the one hand and drugs on the other...