A question about transgender

A little background on me. I'm a bisexual guy, and androgyny is one of the most attractive things to me. I love guys that "look like girls" and girls that "look like guys", that is fucking HOT.

I understand transsexual. If you feel your organs are not what they're supposed to be, I get that. I understand why that makes you dysphoric, I understand wanting the operation, and being very pleased with the results. Changing your sex has tangible results.

But I don't think I really understand transgender. Only because I don't really think gender exists. I think gender roles, and gender identifiers, etc... it's all made up. It's not based on anything that's not subjective, anything that really means anything on an absolute level. There's no reason why it's "feminine" to wear makeup, dresses, high heels, or be quiet, deferential, or flirty. There's no reason why it's "masculine" to wear short hair, crew necks, baggy jeans, or be loud, aggressive, and blunt.

Whether you've got a dick or you've got a pussy: that's real. That's what makes you a man or a woman. You can be anything else, and there's nothing to "trans"ition across the binary. So when I see people be happy with their organs, but make this grand statement about how they're transgender, or third gender, and they make this issue of taking a so-called "gender neutral" name... as if "Steven" or "Julie" had a gender before the first person was given the name... I don't get it.

You're a chick who looks like Elvis and acts like John Wayne. That's perfectly okay. You're a dude who looks like Beyonce and acts like Reese Witherspoon. That's perfectly okay. It doesn't make you anything other than you. This goes without saying, to me, that it's within the boundaries of possibility for you to be a man or a woman who's not like most men or women. Most men and women are only the way they are because they were raised to be that way in a society that assigned them roles.

Why would you, a person who exposes the lie of gender binary, stand up and support the idea that there is gender binary by saying you're not male OR female? For any other reason than what your parts are? If you're intersex, that's another thing...

But why would you say that there's something else about you that's not not male, if you are male (or vice versa), and you are that thing? Obviously, you prove that it is a male trait.

 

I think gender does exist. It's just gender stereotypes that doesnt really matter.. It's fair to say that for a lot of people, these stereotypes go hand in hand with your biological sex. Hence why people always buy blue things for baby boys, and pink things for baby girls. I am not transgender, so I can't really answer why those people feel the way they do.

Now, I am intersex. Around 95% genetically female, but born with a condition that meant my genitals were masculinised at birth. (I also have some secondary male physical characteristics due to not being treated right when I was younger) I was brought up as male, despite never identifying as being that gender. When you're younger, you usually feel a need to fit into a certain gender role. If you feel the opposite sex from the one you're being brought up as, those feelings are a lot more intense. As a child, gender roles are far more strictly defined, and you dont have much scope for subverting that role if you feel it is wrong. Because your parents and society will try and force you into that role. For example, I always hated having my hair cut, and would always have to be dragged to the hairdressers, and always cried when I had to have it done. Looking back now, I can see that is quite a typical reaction that a lot of young girls would have had if they were forced to cut their hair short.

Aside from that, I was very tomboyish, and loved playing with my cars, and video games, but I never once thought that I was male because I enjoyed doing those things. I always identified only as female, and just seen those as some "male" activities which I enjoyed. Seeing as gender roles are purely stereotyped, I can't see how someone can identify as being "both" genders, purely because they don't fit neatly into a gender stereotype. Ive never understood transgenders, because it makes no sense to me. I identify as being totally female. Yet I dress in a fairly androgyness way, and enjoy some activities that would be classified as stereotypically being enjoyed by males. A small part of my genetic make-up is male as well, being intersex. But Ive never identified with that gender.

I would like to hear from a transgender why they don't identify with either gender. If it's purely not conforming to a stereotype, then that's just silly. Most intersex people (and some people labelled "trans") identify totally as one gender or the other, despite having anatomical and/or biological features of both sexes.

 

As a child, you were made to feel that girls were supposed to have long hair and boys were supposed to have short hair, and you were grieved to be forced to wear your hair against your preference because of the made-up societal norm for your percieved gender... Somehow, you didn't feel any anguish for not conforming in your behavior. Why did this happen? Doesn't this prove to you that all of this is subjective? That there's in fact no way to be masculine or feminine in behavior. So why not in appearance? Why do you think that the evidence that you exist isn't better evidence against gender binary than the fact of what most people go around saying?

Besides, you are an adult now. So why do you ascribe to the ideas that caused you pain when you were a child? They caused you pain because you knew they didn't fit, and your response is to be an adult who believes in gender binary? Wouldn't it be truer, and more socially beneficial to the children coming up now, to reject the idea and attempt to be part of a new generation that doesn't hurt children this way? I'm not trying to criticize you, I just don't understand.

It's like... Okay, it's generally viewed by the world that Latinos like beans. It's supported by the facts of their diet, and statistics. It's known to not be universal, but people just kinda go along with it as a stereotype... Just like gender characterstics are known to not be universal by everyone , but still they kinda go along with it. Now, a person comes along who was born in Mexico, and lived in Mexico his entire life. He does not like beans. Which makes more sense? For him to conclude that there's nothing about being Mexican that means you have to like beans... Or that he is not Mexican? It's pretty obvious which of these conclusions is true. In fact, if you go around saying that Mexicans are beaners, people will call you racist.

Again, if you are a male, and you fuss over pretty things... Which is more likely? Some males fuss over pretty things, or you are not male? You know that there are males in every city who fuss over pretty things!

 

I think the fact that intersex people exist at all, is total proof that the gender binary (as most people see it) is purely created by society, and has no basis in nature whatsoever. I did feel anguish because I was being treated as something I knew I wasn't (male), and I was called a male name, and addressed using male pronouns which also caused me frustration and distress. I think if I didnt know in my heart I was female, I wouldnt have felt such a harrowing emotional reaction to being treated like a male. Also, with my hair, I think it was more than just what I was told I was "supposed" to have. It just felt wrong, not only because of what I observed as a child, but it just felt like a part of my femininity had been invaded. I wouldnt have short hair now, not just because of the negative connotations it had as a child, but I look terrible, and too mascuilne with it short. I had to have it cut when I was 19, and I cried then as well when I seen myself in the mirror.

I think the gender binary is something that actually exists and isn't completely fabricated. However, I think the gender binary is in reality, far wider than most people realise, or would wish to be the case. Most people believe that there is only 100% male, and 100% female. XY=Male, and XX=female. The existence of people like myself is proof that is just an illusion created by society. However, in saying that, the fact I identify as female, and not some "third gender", both genders, or in fact no gender at all, means that I do adhere to the gender binary in some form. I also feel my body is not the way it should naturally be. That isn't something that society has fed me, that is something I've always felt deep inside me, from a very young age. So I would say I do believe in a gender binary. Its just not as narrow as most people seem to think it is.

I cannot help how I feel. I've always felt female, and that has never changed. But like Ive said before, just because I believe in gender binary, doesnt mean I believe in it in the way that most people view it. Me feeling that I am female is a very personal thing, and I cant see how that is subscribing to keep hurting children the way I was, and many others were/are. I do believe there is female, and male, yes. But what constitutes that isn't the way that most people seem to think. Lots of intersex people were operated on as babies, to make them appear as one sex. Under the guise of "protecting" the children from potential bullying, and to make it easier for them to fit into society.

Intersex conditions blow the gender binarys apart. But most people dont know about it, because it's still something which is largely hidden away from society at large. Which is completely wrong. I am female, and that is just how I naturally feel. Society played no role in me feeling like that, seeing as I felt it from such an early age that society couldn't have had such a huge influence on me at that time. Children should have the freedom to be themselves, and be able to be who they feel they are, not what society expects them to be. But I cant see this happening, not in my lifetime at least.

Fussing over pretty things would NOT make a male suddenly female. That is seen as a female personality trait, but that is just a gender stereotype. I have stated before that I enjoy things that would be usually associated with the male gender. But gender stereotypes have NOTHING to do with gender. Just because I believe in a gender binary, does not mean I believe in gender stereotyping. Like, you get extremely effeminate gay men, some of them are WAAAAY more effeminate than some women, but that doesn't make them women. And they dont identify as women either, despite acting very camp. I guess you could say I am dissatisfied with my physical sex rather than my gender. Because I always felt there was something wrong with my body at a young age, and I still do.

And that is the main thing with trans people, (some) and intersex people brought up as the wrong gender. Its much more than just fitting into a gender stereotype. Its a deep knowing feeling that something is deeply wrong with your physical body. That isnt something you are made to feel by others, its something you feel deep in your heart, and your gut. Its definitely being more distressed with your physical sex, than your gender. But seeing as how in our society, those two things are seen as intertwined, then unhappiness with your physical anatomy also manifests itself as feeling the opposite gender of which has been placed on you by others. And for the record, I don't think that gender and physical sex are intertwined. The existence of intersex people proves that is not so. Should they be intertwined? Yes. But in some cases, they are not. Which is a fact that most people either don't know, or just dont want to acknowledge.

 

Very interesting conversation, I've enjoyed it a lot. But I guess ultimately, the issues I'm talking about don't really apply to you. Because you're intersex, and do think there there's something wrong with your physical self. I'm wondering what's the deal with people who are not those things, and still think there's a conflict between their sex and "gender".

 

I think the issues are very similar...unless you mean transgender people.(people who identify as both genders, or none at all) Transgender is actually different from "transsexual", which is feeling the opposite sex to the one you were born as. Seeing as how for a long time I was unaware of my physical intersex status, (sadly a very common thing) Im sure a lot of the feelings I went through were very similar to a lot of transsexual people's. I do think gender, sense of self, is very much driven by brain structure, as much as genetics, if not even more so. Just because I am mostly genetically female, I dont think that's why I identify as that. Yes, I know my body felt wrong, but Im sure it was my brain telling me that. I just knew something was wrong. Im sure for transsexuals who feel the same thing at an early age, its a very similar feeling. But then it could be argued that some of those people are just another example of intersex, which I believe to be so. (Though I certainly wouldnt apply that to ALL people labelled transsexual)

I think that physical sex and gender, are actually two entirely seperate things. The fact that for most, their gender is in harmony with their physical sex, does not mean that they are exclusively intertwined. They are not. The problem occurs when your sense of self and gender, conflicts with your physical sex. Because your gender is assigned purely on your physical sex, which I think is wrong. I see my physical sex and my gender as being seperate. Even though I think they SHOULD be intertwined, and in harmony with each other. My gender is female, but my biological setup contains some characteristics that are "male". I have said before I do think there is a "male" and "female". But that has absolutely nothing to do with gender stereotypes. Its something that you feel from a very early age, and if your sense of self is in conflict with your body, and what other people are treating you as, it's a very distressing and painful thing to have to endure.

I would like to hear from a person who feels inbetween genders, because that is something I really don't understand. Which some people might find weird, seeing as I'm physically intersex. But that's only because so many people treat gender and physical anatomy as being the same thing. I can only imagine when someone is "transgender", it means they feel like they are between sexes, and would be happy with a male or female body, or a combination of the two. I do believe some people class themselves as that, just because they dont fit into gender stereotypes, which Ive stated before as being silly.

 

As I said in my first post, I know the difference between transsexual and transgender, and that I understand transsexual a lot better. There was a time when, for you, your issues were that you thought you were transgender because you weren't told you were intersex, and that's very interesting. A useful thing to learn about.

But I'm seeking discussion about transgenders for a specific reason, actually. My sister is dating an FTM transperson called Paper, because it's a genderless name. And she's friends with others, and I suspect may be on the verge of identifying as one herself. From what she says, it sounds like they're biologically female, but they identify as both sexes... or maybe neither. She doesn't use either pronoun when she talks about Paper, she calls Paper "them" or just "Paper". I've been queer all my life, and I've always liked, respected, and been attracted to people like Paper, but the specific way "they" deal with the gender thing, not picking a gender, is new to me and kind of freaking me out. I don't know if I can ever call her - I mean they - without using normal language, and this may never make me feel completely unawkward around her - I mean Paper.

So I don't really believe in gender, and I think it's really silly that Paper is like this. I feel this awkwardness, and it just makes me want to say "You are not a unique snowflake. You think you're not either sex because you dress one way and act another? That stuff is arbitrary social constructs. If you think your body's right, you're a girl, the fact that you look and act the way you do is proof that girls are like you! You are nothing new, there's no reason to rewrite the textbooks on your account." After I talk to her - er, them - or my sister about it maybe I'll understand better. But I'm asking about it here to try to prepare for a conversation that's not going to offend either of them.

 

The brain of a 3 year old child still hasnt developed enough to be very good at recognizing faces and distinguishing voices. They tend to go more on the basics, or think in terms of silhouettes.

So as for gender training, I think the important stuff comes from that age, an age from which no one really remembers much, and IMO gender training then has more to do with temperament, size difference, eyes and voice in relation to peers rather than more detailed gender characteristics.

And its not just gender roles, I think family roles are also a big influence, if not a bigger one. Do the effeminate, small guys get mistaken for little sisters by every other kid, bigger effeminate guys get mistaken for a mum figure, big timid guys get mistaken for a dad figure.

So I.S when you talk about remembering back to not wanting your hair cut you are probably thinking back to a time when you can remeber, 10, 8 or even 6. What about a time like 3 that you cant really remember?

There are some things in life that can only be explained through experience. IMO Gender obscurity, Androgyny and Gender dismorphia are three very different things. I havent met many FTM trans, but several dozen MTF ones. I'm going mainly on my hunches, my vibes, but there is just something different about them than seems more hardwired in, whether that be from early childhood, prenatal biology or genetics, especially in comparison to the very androgynous or even intersex.

Or to put it another way, the androgynous / intersex seem to get off more on having the best qualities of both genders or having a duality, whereas trans its more No! Grrrrrr must be ONE side!

 

Vanilla Gorilla:

My earliest childhood memories are from around 4 years old. And even then, I knew I was female. From my earliest memories of school, I remember feeling different, and that I didn't "fit in" with the other kids. This is something that stayed with me throughout my childhood, adolescence, and still to this day. I've always known I was different. I never wanted to be different, I always wished I was just a normal girl, but for as long as I can remember, I've known I wasn't that. I just knew that being adressed as male felt completely wrong to me. It was almost being in like third-person. As if people were talking to someone else, not me. I didn't recognise this person being addressed as me. My percieved male gender was something I always had terrible issues with. And Im still dealing with the legacy of that. And the wrong choices made at my birth.

I really do not think there is any such thing as "gender training". In as much as that I don't believe your sense of self, or gender has little, if anything to do with envoirenment, family, or anything like that. The main reason I say this, is trans-people can come from any walk of life, different upbringings, different surroundings, so I think if there is any outside influence, it is very small.

Your last point, is totally wrong. Most intersex people do not "get off" on having a duality. (The people you are refferring to are transgender people, not androgyness or intersex people) I know I certainly don't. Intersex people are born with biological characteristics of both sexes (though usually one of the sexes is more predominant), but that is not a choice. And a great deal of those people, myself included, identify with one gender only. I do consider myself partly androgyness, but I don't identify with the male identity at all. It seems very alien to me. My androgyny comes more from my dress sense, and some activities I enjoy, rather than from any "dual identity". I identify as female only.

I do believe that for some at least, gender is hardwired into the brain at birth, and envoirment only effects how you cope and live with that, if it goes against what you're "supposed" to be. One thing is for sure, gender is a lot more complex than most people realise, or would want to be the case. Even physical genetic sex isnt as cut and dried as most people think. Intersex people being the prime example of that.


Avatar:

I never identified as trans-anything. Before I knew about my intersex coniditon, I never saw myself as being transsexual, even though that is what I was medically labelled as. It just never sat well with me as a label for myself. I've only ever identified as female, and that's it. Even without the knowledge of being physically intersexed, I would never have used any "trans" label for myself, as I don't identify with it at all.

The case which you are describing, intrigues me a lot. I do not understand people who identify as both genders, or even "genderless". I too would like to hear from someone who identifies as that. It could just be a fad, or an attempt to be seen as "unique", but I can't judge, seeing as I really have no idea about it. A lot of people (including Vanilla Gorilla, seemingly) seem to think that intersex people mentally feel they are both genders, because of their ambiguous biological sex. This is a total myth however. All of the other intersex people I have spoken to, say they identify as only male or female, not both. Transgenderism is completely seperate from intersex and "transsexualism".

 

Are you sure? No one can read your mind, thus no one really knows whats going on inside your head, and you've spent your life looking from the inside out. Whereas everyone else is looking from the outside trying to look in. Are you sure you really know how everyone sees you, becuase no one can determine that cos the vast majority of the time they aint going to tell you, or if they do it might not be the truth cos they have an alternative motive in mind.

Straight females that complain about being objectified by most of the guys, but still run around in miniskirts and boob tubes cos they want attention from the guys they want, and still use their looks to obtain advantage from the guys they complain about being objectified by, and use that again to rank themselves and compete with the other girls. There's a couple of different layers all working there at once. And it all looks different to different people.

Same kind of thing with you, you may strongly identify as female and get pissed when others think otherwise. But some poeple are just going to simply see that androgyny and think its cool, some are going to see it and think its a little confronting, some are going to think its hot, some not so much, and a lot of them are going to see the difference in how you get treated compared to others and thus its going to see like you might be playing on that advantage or disadvantage even though you are really not.

In the end, people are going to think what they are going to think, there's nothing you can really do to change that.

I get what your saying, I grew up with similar type feelings, I'm a big guy, but never could really relate to most straight guys, I dont think like them, always got on better with girls.

So it used to spin me the fuck out when sitting around with a bunch of girls chewing the fat and one of them would ask me "Why dont you like girls?" And I'm like WTF? Even though I really know she's asking me "Why dont you like sex with girls?" it seemed such a dumbass way of putting it when its me the only guy sitting around with 1/2 dozen girls, or that she's like totally blind, cos the question may be taken that she thinks gay guys are female haters even though the obvious is right in front of her. And even if the question was "Why dont you like sex with girls?" Girls plural? Its like WTF?
So I used to play with them and the conversation would go something like this:

"Why dont you like girls?" at which time I'd look around at the other girls with a confused look that means what a dumbass question, but they'd assume that look meant that I was embarrased by the question
I love girls, they are great to talk to
"You know what I mean""
Errr, no I dont
Batter her eyelids and "Why dont you like having sex with girls?"
Why doesnt your boyfriend like having sex with girls?
"Huh, what? my boyfriend likes girls"
Dont you want him just to like having sex with you and not other girls?
"Well, yeah hmmm" by which time she look confused cross her arms and give up


So yeah, all that kind of shit messes with your head, sometimes its like, fuck, how do they get to their 20,30s, and even 40s nowadays I'm experiencing without seeminly ever working out what seems to be some very basic shit

 

I've spent my whole life being seen as the opposite of what I feel I am, and without a severe body transplant, I'm always going to have issues with that. For me, my main reason I dress how I do is more with what suits me. If dressing in a very feminine way would suit me, then that is what I would do. But I would look silly if I did that, so I tend to stick to a look which still says "I'm female", but isn't overt in that message. I definitely see no "advantage", either by how I dress, or being intersex itself. (the latter thing is in fact, a huge disadvantage, and the reason why my life has been so hard, and I've always been so unhappy) I do have a very female personality, and in that sense, I am much more gender atypical than androgyness.

Besides, I don't want to be seen as a "hot" intersex person, or a "hot tranny". Id much rather be seen as an "ugly chick", than either of those things. I just wear what I feel is comfortable, and what I feel suits me. It really has nothing to do with any other motives, other than simply that. I obviously wear some clothes that are specific to the female gender, but they are not overtly feminine. They just give me some sense that in some way, I am portraying what I really am. My androgyny is partly fueled by my likes, and partly by what is practical, and sensible. Dressing very femininely would draw more attention to me, mostly negative, so that is also something I want to avoid. The less attention is shown to me, the better. And the best way to do that, is going for a very "plain" look.

This is something I've had to deal with all my life, and while it is something which still causes me a degree of anguish, Ive had to get used to it. I just want people to see me as simply female, nothing more. But if some people don't see me as that, then there's not much I can do to change that.

I think some women see gay men as a "challenge", and think deep down, there is a part of them which is sexually attracted to females. They see this as some kind of "conquest", as if they can be so amazingly womanly and attractive, that they can convert a gay man to being bi, or even straight. These women are just incredibly vain, and can't take the fact that there are men who wouldn't want to have sex with them. The fact the man is gay, would make no difference to that feeling. Of course, they could genuinely be perplexed at why you don't like sleeping with girls. However, the former scenario is much more likely to be the case with most women who say dumb stuff like that. You can easily read between the lines, and see that the question "Why don't you like girls?" actually translates to: "Are you not attracted to me?" And "Why do you not like having sex with girls?", is actually "Why wouldn't you want to have sex with me?" That might not be the case all the time, but I'm sure most of the time, that is exactly what is being implied when women ask those types of questions to gay men.

I have female instincts, and emotions, so I also have that need to feel attractive to the opposite sex. (That need is never fulfilled, but it's still there) But I do think those types of questions to gays are daft, and is just mainly vanity on those women's part. Its like "duh!", of course he doesnt like sex with girls, he's attracted to men! Dumb bints.

 

im not understanding do u not understand liek people who go from one sex to the other or liek drag queens?- srry if thats not pc

 

Yes, people who feel inbetween sexes, and/or both genders. That is something I dont understand, and can't relate to. Those people are also the people that Avatar's original post was aimed at.

As for drag queens...that's an interesting one. I know that most transvestites are straight males, who have no issues with their physical sex, or gender. Most drag queens however, are usually gay men. Though I am unaware as to whether or not most actually have a "desire" to be female, or whether it is actually just an act. Im guessing that for most, it is just an extension of camp behaviour, and they don't actually have gender issues. Id be surprised if some don't feel in between genders though.

 

If you're talking to me, as I said from the start and more than once... I like, and even am attracted to, transsexuals, transgenders, and drag queens... all types of androgyny. I just don't understand why anyone thinks anything other than their bodies makes them male or female. The evidence is overwhelming that someone's appearance, behavior, and feelings can be anything, whether they are male or female. So when someone says they have a different "gender" from their "sex", I think to myself "why do you think feeling, looking, or behaving in a certain way is not congruent with your physical sex, and this makes you trans anything?"

I don't get what you mean, Invisible Soul, when you say you have "always felt female". What's that? I guarantee you, everything you feel is felt by some males and some females, so why do you think that makes you different? However, being intersex complicates the issue. You have physical characterisitics of both sexes. But I would have expected that would just free your mind even more.

 

I guess it's just something that's impossible to put into words, or explain to someone who doesn't know how I feel. I think people like me are different, because how we've naturally felt goes against how we've been expected to feel, and act. I have already stated that gender stereotypes and gender, are two completely different things. I do believe that while males and females can and do share a lot of personality traits, (certainly far more than some would like to admit) men and women are different, and that's not just tied down to differences in physical sex. There are also differences in brain structure between the two sexes. So while personality traits can be shared by both sexes, biologically, they are very different.

And I guess when I say "I've always felt female" I probably mean purely from a physical standpoint. Most women do not feel they are men, and vice versa. So why should someone like me feel any different? Something in my biological make up, be that genetic, brain structure, or both, is giving me the message that I am female. Which is why I've always had issues with my physical body. Because the "male" tag is placed on the physical anatomy and biology of the opposite to what I feel I am, and what I should have, then it's only obvious that I would see myself as female. The way you are looking at it, is too simplistic, which is quite ironic. Some things cannot be taught. And are in-built at birth, and perhaps even before that. The personal feeling of "self" is one of those things I believe is in-built, and can't be taught. However, most times that sense of self isn't seen as being a problem, if it fits with what your biology says you should be. If your sense of self goes against what other people believe you to be, then that can cause a slew of psychological problems, as I know only to well.

You say I should free my mind, but I can't help how I feel. And I never could. "Male" is just something Ive never idenitified as, which has nothing to do with gender stereotypes, or anything else. Despite what you say, men and women ARE different, and that is just a fact. It is interesting that most people who feel like they are "both genders", are in fact, not intersex. Which adds more weight to my belief that gender is much more a product of the brain. Whereas phsyical sex is dictated by genetics, and chromosomes. I will also add here, that there are at least 49 other known chromosomal types other than XX, and XY. (XXX, XYX, YYX, XYY, X, and XO are just some of them) It is also biologically possible for males to be XX, and females to be XY. This is a chromosomal abnormality, but it still shows that even chromosomes are not enough to establish someone's gender. I myself, am XX. But due to a hormonal defect, which made my body over-produce androgens, my body developed some secondary male characteristics.

Gender, and even physical sex, is much more complex than most people realise. But even so, I still believe there is a female and male, and also that there are real differences between the two sexes. Maybe I just feel how I do, because I feel my physical state is not the way it should be. Maybe because that physical state has the tag "female" is the reason why I feel that. All I can say is, I can't really explain it. It's just a really intense feeling that I've always felt, and it's never gone away. Maybe it is too complex for me to explain, or even for me to understand, but I have always felt female. Why? I really cant answer that, it's just how I feel. And I'm certain I was born that way.

 

There's more than a few militant Lesbians I wish could understand that. You know the ones who loudly picket the Playboy recruitment at college campuses and claim that it perpetuates the male objectification (ignoring that gay males objectify other guys all the time). They will say that I get off on naked women because my daddy taught me that behavior as a child (he had a calendar of the famous Marilyn Monroe nude pic in his workshop). I think I was just hardwired as a male to objectify images of pretty women and men.

Gender advertising is so natural - as well as being drawn to those cues (objectification). Mammals, birds and fish do it all the time. I have noticed that I am drawn to "Tranny Bois" those very butch young lesbians who have short hair, diminutive breasts and unshaved armpits. (And would kick my ass if they knew what I was thinking) They even adjust their crotch sometimes. My attraction is that I like adolescent males and these women look just like cute boys. What triggers visual cues is probably buried deep in our respective hypothalamus.

An interesting anecdote about how we view others gender. I hang out at the nude beach here in Miami-Dade County. One sunny day while walking along the beach I saw this beautiful woman with long hair, small breasts and a penis and scrotum. Wow, that is daring!

So, I put my towel nearby and started talking to her. Notice I say "her" because the image I saw was female. Her whole being exuded it somehow and that is what I saw, despite the penis. (She mentioned that she was not going to get an op because she didn't want to give up physical feelings that would be lost with a constructed vagina.) Oh, she did get some derisive stares and comments from some other beachgoers. Not everyone is ready for different.

 

I just think it's really silly how anyone could think your sense of self, or sexuality could have anything to do with envoironment or anything like that. Besides the overwhelming evidence against it, it just flies in the face of common sense. My feeling of being female, Im certain was hardwired into my brain at birth, likewise, my sexuality. Some might argue that being mostly genetically female is the reason why I identify as that, which may have some basis in fact. Though I still think gender and physical sex are in fact different things. Even though they are mostly in harmony with each other.

 

Invisible Soul, what you call "feeling female" can't possibly be unaffected by your environment. If you grew up in an environment where most men presented themselves in a way that you identified with and women did not, and there are lots of men and women who do that, you'd call that "feeling male". You're not born with language.

 

See...you're doing it again... Men could not possibly present themselves in a way that I identify with. seeing as my gender identification has NOTHING to do with gender stereotypes. It would not matter how feminine men acted, they are not women, so I would not have identified with them at all. If what we know as female, was actually known as male instead, then of course I would identify as male. But that is clearly not what you meant. You are trying to understand something you clearly have no concept of. Men could NEVER present themselves in a way that I would identify with, so your point is actually completely wrong. Envoirnment had nothing to do with my gender identification. Seeing as my sense of self had as much to do with distress over my physical anatomy, as being seen as "male", then men could never have presented themselves in a way in which I would have identified. Seeing as that is not physically possible. The physical difference between men and how I felt I should look, would have been apparent even if they behaved femininely. Besides, Ive already said I felt very tomboyish while growing up. But that never made me think I'm actually male instead of female. I just felt like a female who enjoyed those activities. It seems to me, like you are trying to tie down gender and sense of self to gender stereotypes, which Ive stated a few times have nothing whatsoever to do with gender itself, or self-idenitification.

 

You seem to be getting upset, and I really don't want to upset you. But I don't think what you're saying makes any sense. I firmly believe gender is all about stereotypes, because I know for a fact that both men and women can feel, look, and behave in any and all possible ways. I've seen it, it's everywhere. If you think a male could not have anything you identify with, I think your rejection of identifying with so-called "masculinity" is absolutely in your head. You reject the idea of it out of hand based on knowing they're a guy. 'Cause I'll bet that there are lots of males whose "femininity" you would identify with if you only didn't know they were male.