All Quiet on the Eastern Front.....

It seems to have gone a bit dead in this forum lately, so I thought I'd post up a few of my recent thoughts for your consideration, amusement, and of course, enlightenment.:H

Ok - I am these days moving towards the idea that the universe itself is 'God', or 'goddess' if you prefer - but either way, it's only a conveneince for our human mindset.
It seems to me entirely possible that the universe has always existed - it had no beginning, and there will be no end. It just continually moves through cycles of change where new forms arise to replace the old ones as they decay and disappear. Recycling.

Higher intelligence, the divine intelligence, exists hidden deep within the actual structure of matter, and it evolves matter as a vehicle for it's own manifestation. God does not exist separate from the universe. What we see every day with our eyes, and hear with our ears is god. It's just that our consciousness hasn't yet arrived at the stage where we can see this immediately.

If this is so, and it is not being propounded here as dogma, then all our categories of what is 'holy' and 'unholy' clearly have to change. The only way in which we could possibly serve god is to serve the universe, or the leading edge of it's conscious manifestation - ie humankind (we don't know how far things might have prgressed on other planets).
The best thing we can do is to become more conscious - expand the depth and range of our own consciousness. If the universe is god, then we are god too. It is only a question of awakening...conscious evolution.
To see things like science as in some way opposed to, or separate from the divine is simply a lack of vision.
When IT evolves into form, we are IT. Therefore, attempts by science to improve our manifest existence are actually the work of the divine to improve the conditions of it's own manifestation.

Anyway, just a few thoughts to chew on.

love & peace

 

Thank you for your post, yes its been a while since we all posted here anyway
If we want to serve God, we need to know God directly BBB,
As of right now by your comments, if we take the God concept to be real. Then, we may claim universe is God, but in truth it could just be a minute part of God,
we simply do not know for sure.

Mahatmas say that we are ignorant because the mind is impure. Hence, to know about the universe, self realized mahatmas claim that we need to purify our minds. One way to battle nescience, is we need to perform actions with detachment. In vaishnava perspective, we need to perform actions through our surrender to God.

When the mind is pure, it will reflect the knowledge of God and our position with in this universe with ease. Until then, we should focus on purification of the mind through strict sadhana.

 

Right - so if we say the universe is god, then it becomes a question of learning to see it as it actually is.

Coversely, our concept of god could be seen as only a tiny, and actually pretty insignificant part of the universe.

Purity of vision is everything in the sense that if we could see, we would, to use the words of William Blake see 'everything as infinite'.
We can't actually be detached from the universe, because we are part of it in our fundamental being. By 'universe' I don't just mean the physical universe but also subtle and energetic planes of being.
Take consciousness. I am conscious, so consciousness is 'inside me'. But I see that others too are conscious - so consciousness is also 'outside me'. Even the objects I percieve are only there for me because of consciousness - in a sense they are consciousness, or the perceptual forms consciousness takes. So in a sense, the universe is consciousness, and hard to say what else....

In stead of saying 'I am god, you are god, everyone and everybody is god' - and I've heard that statement in effect from many Hindu teachers, say 'I am the universe, you are the universe, everybody and everything is the universe'.
In the end, there's not much difference, only a substitution of one term for another.

The universe has invested a lot of it's conscious energy in our speices - it is our duty - more than a socially constructed duty, but even the raison de etre for our being that we try to work in harmony with and realize within ourselves the role for which we came into being - to become conduits for this higher consciousness, which is not limited to 'me' or 'you' or 'it' - it is inexplicable, and I'm only really playing with words here in an attempt to express something of what has become clearer to me during the last couple of years.

Anyway - nice to hear from you Jedi.

 

When I said detachment, I meant detachment to the results of our actions BBB. We are not our physical bodies, however as long as one is in a body, it is the center of one's activities except maybe in deep sleep. If he is attached to the results then he is basically in illusion because he is working under the assumption, "I am the body". So, one cannot be attached to the results of one's actions if one really wants to not be in illusion.

According to hinduism and all its philosophies, God is something that is all inclusive. We know that God is all inclusive, what I am saying is we don't know whether the universe is all inclusive or not. So, we know that our concept of God is not an insignificant part of the universe, we dont know whether universe consists of everything to be proclaimed as God.


We 'think' that we cannot see everything as pure infinite self with a pure mind, but that thought is only a byproduct of an impure mind. It is possible to purify the mind, alot of saints and holy men have done so. We should do it as well to really know the truth.

 

I'm quoting myself here because I thought I'd expand on that a little bit.
The process of becoming more conscious, of awakening if you like, is a multi-sided question.
I won't attempt to go into the multitude of different methods and approaches that exist, but I'd just like once again to quote from my own personal experience, and say that a large part of the process can be seen as one of healing - I don't just mean healing the physical body of it's ailments, but also the mind and consciousness.
In a way, we have to be 'healed' of the results of most of our experiences on this planet. There are deep collective issues which affect most of us, regardless of the culture into which we were born, and which shaped our minds at the early stages of development.
An example would be a sense of guilt in just being which is engendered in people by the catholic church. I was told from a young child that we are all bad because of adam etc, and I know from what I have seen in myself that it has had a negative effect, up to a point, on the whole of my subsequent life. The trouble is, that things like this, a collective negative attitude, get deep into what are usually unconscious layers of the psyche, from where they exert their negative influence.Perhaps this is the origin of myths of demons or asuras who inhabit an underworld - they represent our collective negativity, or the personal 'demons' in the form of buried trauma we have in ourselves.
We also see the results of these negative factors being enacted all around us all the time. If we were sane, we would go mad!! The trouble is, we've grown up, and lived our lives in a world gone askew, and we've come to regard it all as 'normal'.

So this healing I'm talking about is a healing of the effect of both personal traumas which are different for different people, and also collective negative energy, which is transmitted to us through culture. It is my very strong feeling that this goes very deep, and accounts for an awful lot of negativity in the world.
To put it slightly differently - the cultures into which we were born were cultures which are deeply traumatized - we can't help but be conditioned by that because we don't have a choice as imprint vulnerable infants as to what is put into our heads.
But we can try to work for our own healing, and for the healing of others and the world itself. But our own healing has to come first. That isn't egoism or selfishness, but an honest admission that the principle that a blind man can hardly be relied upon the lead others is applicable here.

So I think that the idea of adopting a healing type of attitude towards oneself and others is one definite and useful way to exercise compassion, and one route by which we can move towards a better existence for ouselves and the world. What we need is love.

 

Point 1- it depends entirely on how you define or understand the term universe. I am using it here in all-inclusive sense.

I agree that it is possible to purify the mind, although I also have the feeling that the puification may not be as envisaged by some 'religious' people.
What I said above about healing is aimed at the same thing. To be healed in the sense I mean is to become purified, and vica versa - you can't be pure until you are healed inside - not necessarily in the body, but in the inner being.

 

Oh absolutely! .

We need to heal ourselves of this disease/ ignorance. I don't know much about the vedas, but it is said that the nescience of the mind is shielding us from the truth just like womb covers the the baby inside.

 

I guess for me, universe was always a collection of galaxies and dark matter and what not scientists say it is... but I guess if you are saying it is all inclusive, then God is everything and universe is everything so God is universe

 

Welcome home boys. How nice it is to finally agree with everyone. I hope that wasnt patronising.

 

Not at all patronizing

 

Hare Krishna everyone...the board has been pretty slow on the eastern side, but this is a nice discussion.

I knew Bill was around but have wondered about Bhaskar, Jedi, and Nicole.

Good observations about healing oneself, Bill. A lot of that has been going on with me and I think it's a direct result of the recent ongoing discussions and confrontations on the Christian forum. It's been very interesting to hang out over there since the departure of a couple of highly-disruptive posters.

Jedi, as usual I'm pretty much on the same page philosophically with you regarding Vaisnavism, Krishna-bhakti and sadhana practice...I regret that I didn't have your wisdom and maturity at 21. You've got a whole life ahead and I'm looking at the short end.

 

Not much to add really, except i also agree with whats been written

Due to time i haven't read every single post thoroughly however.

What I find interesting to consider is whether God, universe, me, you, good, bad, evil ete exist as separate things, I think it's all part of the same thing which we like to try and separate.

Maybe true peace comes when you see everything as yourself. Because what would there be to repell or attract you if it's you.

In my present frame of mind I wonder, is it best to go with the flow, not judge and accept what happens. Or consciously try and change things when I do not have the wisdom to know what is best to change or improve. If this is even possible.

Another ramble .........

 

Thanks for the comments folks - I'll perhaps add a bit more about healing when I have more time to do so.


Spook - I have mixed feelings about the c/anity forum. It does make you think though - and I've learned a certain amount, in an oblique way, through participation, even if what I have to say is not very well recieved over there.

I also agree that it is good to see young people like Jedi, Nicole, Bhaskar and others who seem so well on their way - however, I also feel strongly that oldsters like you and I do have a contribution to make.
I get the same feeling sometimes around younger people I know - I think 'why couldn't I have been like that when I was 21?' But - that's life. I think we all have lessons to learn, and I hope I will never get so myopic as to imagine I've arrived at a state where there is no more. I also find though, that I relate well to young people, who in turn I find very accepting, and usually respectful in a way that just didn't happen between me and members of the older generation back in the 60's and 70's. The generation gap is much less of a barrier these days than back then. At least, that's my own experience. And I have to say, it gives me a good feeling.

I'm also impressed with the fact that although there have been many disagreements, both Jedi and Bhaskar are still on friendly terms with me - it shows maturity to be able to disagree without falling out or resorting to name calling etc as is too often the case both on hip forums and in life in general.

I think partly, or even mainly it's because the people here are influenced by Indian philosophy which has always accepted a variety of different views and approaches - how different than the 'one size fits all' mentality associated with western religions (except paganism/wicca etc).
That alone is reason enough for me to value a lot of what I've learned from 'Hindu' sources over the years.

 

Phil - I think a kind of balance of both approaches you outline here is the right way. It is good to 'go with the flow' generally. The only thing is, it depends on which direction things are flowing. I suppose we can say there's a kind of general flow of nature - to be in tune with that and allow oneself to be moved in harmony with it, is itself a definite attainment in our culture. People like Aborigines have this quite naturally, because they live 'in nature' so to speak, and are part of it, whilst we have to one degree or another taken to living lives which in many ways are wholly artificial.
This can be symbolized by the difference between people before and after the industrial revolution. In the old agrarian culture prior to 1750ish, the rythym of life was goverend by the rythyms of nature. When the sun come up, you get up. You do the work until that job is done. At times when there not much work to be done, you have a party.
How different from the lives of factory workers whose lives were ruled by the factoy whistle blowing to summon the next shift. Instead of the natural rythms of the universe, human life was run on the basis of mechanical clocks.
Instead of daily and constant interaction directly with the earth itself as well as animals and plants, people's lives were to be spent amidst the mechanical clatter of machinery.

And in just about every way from diet to social attitudes, we live in a more or less contrived and artificial world. Not the world we actually evolved to live in, but something we have created, and which now seemingly controls us.

Anyway my point is that going with the flow of modern life isn't always such a great thing.
I agree that it isn't easy always to see what needs to change, or how we can possibly do anything to change anything at all in a meaningful way, beyond a very narrow range of things. But still, I think we have to try. But we have to be careful. It is necessary to look at things in depth, and from many different angles before we can come to definite conclusions.

In terms of the wider world, we may have only very limited power to do anything or change anything.
But in the sphere of our own personal lives, and even more our inner lives, I think change is definitely possible. Even in a negative situation which exists externally, we can still try to retain our own balance and a sense of the positive. We can actually choose on what we focus our attention. We do not have a duty to constantly have to look at all that is bad and negative in life. We can acknowledge that it's going on, but refuse to be controlled, or have our inner feelings dictated by it.
If we can just be positive, we can overcome our own inner demons. Then we are in a good position to contribute towards positive change in the wider world or in society or whatever. It is perhaps only when we can be disinterested or detached that we can look at the world with any real chance of seeing what does need to change and how that might come about.

 

I'd better add a disclaimer to that.

I am not one of those who advocates a return to the stone age. In fact I'm something of a techno freak - I think a future is possible for humankind where we can have a sustainable level of sophisticated technolgy, but we need to chage our current approach in many ways.

I think it is possible that ways can be found, and are even now emerging in the lives of many people, in which we can recover something of the consciousness natural to tribal people, and others with a deeper awareness, and which we seem to have lost. I think this implies an awakening to spiritual realities, and in fact, a realization of the interconnectedness of everything at every level.
The materialist sees only a small range of reality. The conventionally religious see a different, but still limited range. We have to move beyond these barriers if we are to realize the potential that exists to create a new future.

 

Perhaps, Bill, this is what you mean?

 

Thanks Bhaskar - that's very good.


Here's another, which, although I've posted it before, I also like very much.

The Invitation

It doesn’t interest me what you do for a living.
I want to know what you ache for
and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart’s longing.

It doesn’t interest me how old you are.
I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool
for love
for your dream
for the adventure of being alive.

It doesn’t interest me what planets are squaring your moon...
I want to know if you have touched the centre of your own sorrow
if you have been opened by life’s betrayals
or have become shrivelled and closed
from fear of further pain.

I want to know if you can sit with pain
mine or your own
without moving to hide it
or fade it
or fix it.

I want to know if you can be with joy
mine or your own
if you can dance with wildness
and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes
without cautioning us
to be careful
to be realistic
to remember the limitations of being human.

It doesn’t interest me if the story you are telling me
is true.
I want to know if you can
disappoint another
to be true to yourself.
If you can bear the accusation of betrayal
and not betray your own soul.
If you can be faithless
and therefore trustworthy.

I want to know if you can see Beauty
even when it is not pretty
every day.
And if you can source your own life
from its presence.

I want to know if you can live with failure
yours and mine
and still stand at the edge of the lake
and shout to the silver of the full moon,
“Yes.”

It doesn’t interest me
to know where you live or how much money you have.
I want to know if you can get up
after the night of grief and despair
weary and bruised to the bone
and do what needs to be done
to feed the children.

It doesn’t interest me who you know
or how you came to be here.
I want to know if you will stand
in the centre of the fire
with me
and not shrink back.

It doesn’t interest me where or what or with whom
you have studied.
I want to know what sustains you
from the inside
when all else falls away.

I want to know if you can be alone
with yourself
and if you truly like the company you keep
in the empty moments.

Oriah Mountain Dreamer.

© Mountaindreaming, from the book The Invitation published by HarperSanFrancisco, 1999 All rights reserved

 

Sawadee Kaa (as they say),

I'm still here I swear! lol. I'm sorry I can't read all the posts on this thread (though the few I've read are very interesting). I'm finishing up an archaeological dig in Thailand and I should be back in Boston in a few days (one or two or something). But as far as I read this thread looks fab! I look forward to reading the whole thing and to forum-ing (yes I just made that a verb) with you lovely folks again

But I will comment this much:

"From joy I came
For joy I live
Into joy I shall go again."- Paramahansa Yogananda

Bonsoir mes amis. Namaste! Hari Om!

*peace and love*
Nicole

 

I hope you're enjoying the dig - I'm sure you are

That's a lovely quote from Yogananda.

 

Nah, it is all good , I am glad that you agree with me too. Thanks for the welcome.