An argument for the non-existance of deity

Yeah, well, basically, this is how I see some things:

People say that gods exist outside of all logic.

But, to me, that makes no sense whatsoever.

For something to exist, it must be able to be defined. That is, it must (1) have some kind of "blueprint" or pre-defined image, and (2) it must actually be present within some kind of structure within which that blueprint can be realized.

i.e. In order for an El Camino to exist, we must first know (1) what exactly an El Camino is (a car, with an engine, exhaust, windshield, seats, steel, et cetera) and/or is not (a star, grass, a computer speaker cable ...), and then there must be an actualized version of that blueprint (i.e. the physical El Camino).

Thus, if there is some kind of "deity," or "god," then that deity/god must be able to be defined, in some way, shape, or form. Since because this deity must have some kind of definition, it MUST exist in some kind of construct that has some form of logical structure.

Thus, no "god" can exist outside of all logic.

Feel free to comment. =)

Oh yeah, and while I'm thinking about life: What! The! Fuck! Life is fuckin' insane!

 

What if our system of logic is not complete (Godel's incompleteness theorum) and the one that created it (God) has a complete set of logical rules?

Thus, God always exists outside our system of logic until we have adequate rules to describe God within our system of logic.

 

It's not just about OUR "system of logic" though, the argument is against the statement "God exists outside of ALL logic."

I see how one could certainly exist in another, higher-ordered system of logic. But a God can't actually exist outside of all logic, that seriously just sounds absurd to me.

 

I think I get what you are saying...I'd probably agree.

I am not quite sure what you mean when you say "all logic" as opposed to just "logic" ? Or was that just to emphasise that god cannot exist outside of possible other logic systems above our own?

If god can exist outside of our logic system, and we don't know any others systems, is it not possible that god exists outside of that too? seeing as we cannot logically define any other system of logic, we cannot determine wether or not god exists(I know the word exist is a term in our system)within any other possible system.
Existence is just a word in our system, which caters for our limited ability to understand.

*head explodes in confusion*

 

either that or there is a deity, having created us all. now try and define that deity. harder than it sounds huh? of course we humans couldn't, even if that deity exists. so obviously we couldn't if it didn't exist. I believe in God and nope I haven't the slightest clue as to where to start defining him. it's not about logics.
I could sit here and tell you why I believe in God, but my points would not be understood. they would be challenged without even an effort to understand it. my belief in God doesn't simply rest on paper.

peace,
Robi

 

Lol... Perhaps certain portions of God fit within logic, but is there a logical way to come up with the color blue from nothing (or a logical way to come up with logic from nothing)?

 

That is correct. Say, for example, there is a heaven, with a different set of physics or logic. A god could exist there. I'm saying, any deity cannot exist without some set of logic (not necessarily our own) to be defined within.

Well I don't want to start this into a religion war, so I'm not going to ask why you believe in God, because it doesn't matter. =P

But, I'm not arguing that HUMANS can define God. I'm arguing that, God cannot be defined in ANY way, outside of all traces of logic whatsoever. Whether it's a human way, or an animal way, or a deitic way, it's impossible.

"Perhaps certain portions of God fit within [our] logic." This I agree is possible.

A logical way to come up with the colour blue, outside of all logic? No.

A logical way to come up with logic from nothing? There might be. Or perhaps there is no such thing as "nothing," in that some form of logic exists everywhere, and is the foundation of our universe and perhaps others?

 

It's a good argument, and it's been thought of before. Wittgenstein wrote something like "whereof one cannot speak, one must pass over in silence." He was talking about metaphysics in general, but there is hardly a more metaphysical problem than the existence of God. My one concern is that you may be getting too hung up on definitions. An El Camino may have a muffler, but if the muffler falls off is it still an El Camino? Of course it is. If I saw an El Camino driving down the street with no muffler, I'd still be able to readily recognise it as an El Camino. Words have very general meanings. There's nothing entirely essential to a definition, except perhaps for abstract ideas such as "2". In the case of "2", I'm talking about purely logical concepts that lack the ontological status of things like an El Camino, or what most people think of when they think of God for that matter. Also, keep in mind that the argument only works in disproving an ineffable God. I can think of a few philosophers/theologians who believed that God was definible, like Anselm or Leibniz.


Moving on, I think we've abused the Incompleteness Theorem enough for one day.

a) "Logic is incomplete. Therefore, God exists." is not a valid deduction.

b) Even if it was, I don't see how logic could be used to prove something that exists outside of logic.

and

c) Deductive logic can't be used to prove the existence of anything, least of all God.

 

I agree
and Josh, you crack me up "What!The! Fuck! Life is insane!"

:-D

it sure is, keeps you on your toes, huh?

 

Perhaps an El Camino isn't the best example.

In the case of an El Camino, the car *optionally* but not necessarily has a muffler.

An El Camino is something defined by a human, and humans have really whacked out definitions. So, when I talk about "definitions," I'm not speaking about human interpretations of things, I'm talking about the absolute definition of something irrelevant of perception.

For example, a proton's "definition," in energy, and charge, and mass, et cetera.

What I tried to explain above, is exactly what's bolded here, in what you said.

Naturally ... I guess I should say this one last time. I am saying that a god cannot exist outside of ALL logic, not just our system of logic.

LOL, aye ... that it does.

 

hmm, I'm still really confused as to what exactly you're trying to say. I mean you're talking about the lack of knowlegde that humans have. it may be true but it doesn't make us any less human. we humans, with all our logic, cannot define God. we cannot put a blueprint to God. so that either means there's no deity because humans cannot conceive the full idea of a deity or it means that that deity is exactly what humans say it is, since we cannot define it. and human logic is the same as animal logic etc. we have just realized it more fully. and by that maybe there is another logic, a deitic logic that we have not realized. I have a very hard time believing that we human are as good as it gets. we actually have no idea about animal logic either because we are not animals. God is, more than anything, a concept to us. nobody even knows how we came to believe in a deity. nobody will ever prove it or disprove it and proof is the last thing you should be looking for if you're looking for God. you will not find any logical proof whatsoever. nor did I, but I still believe in that deity because I'm alive. wipe out the notion of God and you end up more confused than ever about the origin of the universe or whatever. when I look at the fact that I exist, that alone is a proof of sorts that there exists something much greater than myself. not that I'm trying to convince you of a god, and I'm not even saying that I'm right in my belief. like you said it doesn't matter. but there is a lot of matter for thought. and that matter is much much more complex than simply saying that since it is not within our logic, it must not exist. it's very easy to say God does not exist I guess, because, to us, He really doesn't exist. He's nowhere to be found. but that is also saying that this is it. let's die and everything that has ever existed will once and for all be wiped out, forgotten, as if it never existed. that's where I have convinced myself of a deity. as much as God is outside of my logic, so is the eternal end of me.

 

Wellmet Hikaru

Yes.. The way reality works seems to be based on logic.
There is logical structure in everything from atoms to galactic clusters.
For anything to exist it seems it must have a logical structure
based in the laws of reality as we understand them.

Occam would add a new dimension to your position.
NOWHWERE is it a law that a 'god' must be an individual.
Occam could postulate many situations where a RACE
might attain the powers we ascribe to the human definition of a
GOD.
And finds such an idea far more 'logical' than an omnipotent god.

Occam gives little credence to the concept of a being that has 'always existed'.
Reality may always have existed. For reality is its own underpinnings.
But an individual being that made reality? Is a logical contradiction.
For a 'reality' [of laws] must have existed first for ANYTHING to exist.

So yes..for a 'god' to exist.. Be it an individual being or a race.
It must exist within a framework of logic.
Any logic will do. as long as it does not contradict itself.
Or exist as a structure without a set of laws that allows that structure.

Occam

PS.. And many will say there are recorded human events that defy logic. Incorrect.
There are many events/phenomena that WE DONT UNDERSTAND.
In no way does it mean that logic is contradicted.
It just means we are ignorant of ALL THE FACTS.
When we understand all the laws..
When we understand what they may result in.
then we will understand.

 

i think my contradiction to ur argument is in the first two sentences - that god exists outside of all logic, yet that makes not sense to you. and that's the point, because this sense of god, whatever that may be, exists outside of logic, it cannot be comprehended by the human mind who's thought processes exist only in logical, linear structure. i believe that the nature of god, rather, lies in what we feel, for what we feel is experienced by a consciousness that is constantly aware, but we never really know what it is or where it comes from. can you really put you finger on where you feel feelings? not your brain which creates the perception, but the consciousness that experiences it? its a hard task. but notice that in normal waking consciousness, a feeling is rarely experienced without an accompanying thought process. even our thoughts are feelings, but they are a long long string of experiences one after another,constantly redirecting our attention or awareness to yet another perception created by our own brain, and we can rarely completely feel any one of them before arriving at another feeling(orthought), and then another... i guess i think that god's existence lies so far out of logic that even saying the word "god" blocks understanding it because the notion of god is a concept, a symbol representing the mystery. even the words i am writing right now are not getting us any closer to the answer, for they too are just thoughts and not real. one of the few times we are able to pay complete attention is when totally engrossed in music, when the seperation between the "person" hearing it and the sound being heard breaks down. for that moment, all you are is the sensation, and to me that is spiritual.As Allen Watt's said "all this sounds very deep, or it could have no meaning at all. Instead, one should pay attention to the sound of the words, and then you will get my point."

 

i think my contradiction to ur argument is in the first two sentences - that god exists outside of all logic, yet that makes not sense to you. and that's the point, because this sense of god, whatever that may be, exists outside of logic, it cannot be comprehended by the human mind who's thought processes exist only in logical, linear structure. i believe that the nature of god, rather, lies in what we feel, for what we feel is experienced by a consciousness that is constantly aware, but we never really know what it is or where it comes from. can you really put you finger on where you feel feelings? not your brain which creates the perception, but the consciousness that experiences it? its a hard task. but notice that in normal waking consciousness, a feeling is rarely experienced without an accompanying thought process. even our thoughts are feelings, but they are a long long string of experiences one after another,constantly redirecting our attention or awareness to yet another perception created by our own brain, and we can rarely completely feel any one of them before arriving at another feeling(orthought), and then another... i guess i think that god's existence lies so far out of logic that even saying the word "god" blocks understanding it because the notion of god is a concept, a symbol representing the mystery. even the words i am writing right now are not getting us any closer to the answer, for they too are just thoughts and not real. one of the few times we are able to pay complete attention is when totally engrossed in music, when the seperation between the "person" hearing it and the sound being heard breaks down. for that moment, all you are is the sensation, and to me that is spiritual.As Allen Watt's said "all this sounds very deep, or it could have no meaning at all. Instead, one should pay attention to the sound of the words, and then you will get my point."

 

sorry for posting twice, computer is broke........

 

An argument for the non-existance of deity

We know God exists, because we created him.

Of course that makes no sense, because we created God to fit the Logic of our Psychological needs.

It is only to disquise that fact that people say our God exists outside of all Logic.

That way we can pretend that we're not responsible for God's creation.

We can pretend that we're not neurotically preoccupied with our psychological fears and insecurities.

Also, if we can delude ourselves that our created God is bigger than ourselves, then our God becomes a powerful delusion that serves the Logic of our Psychological needs even better.

 

Blah.

For the last time, *I am not talking about human logic.*

Logic is not something that humans have made. It is something that defines exactly what a human is. Human existance relies on logic, NOT the other way around, and the same MUST be true for any kind of deity to exist.

Also, just because we can't correctly percieve the blueprint of a deity, does not mean that the deity does not exist.

I apologize, I'd respond to the rest of what you said, but it's kind of irrelevant, it's a separate argument (which I wasn't arguing).

Stop there ... for the *very* last time ... okay hold on, let me make this really, really big for all of you.

I am not talking about the human definition of God.

I'm talking about ANY form of definition, whether human, or animal, or plant, or deitic, I'm saying, in order for a God to exist, that god must be able to be defined, in SOME way. Not necessarily a HUMAN way.

 

We can't create a God outside of our Human logic or definition.

Does anything exist outside of our Human logic or definition?
Nothing we could know of, or think of, or make a thread in this forum about.

But at least we know God does exists, because we logically created it and defined it.

 

there is no possible way to explain what we can never know.

There is no way we comprehend even a fraction, there is definitely something mindblowing though, I don't think that can be denied

 

I am ALSO not talking about what kind of god we can create. I am talking about, any kind of god that could potentially EXIST.

I appreciate the insight, but it has nothing to do with what I'm really trying to explain here.