right..wrong? Are we, in this modern day, above giving one of the most sacred rites of the past? Is it somehow wrong to sacrifice the blood of a black goat to the cthonic deities, dancing around the fire as the meat cooks for your consumption, and placing the skull on the altar? Or should we stick to incense and flowers? Tell me your thoughts.
Pay-off? is everything about return? Maybe the sacrifice is the "pay-off" of a blessing one might have received.. What is the pay-off of praying? What is the pay-off of tithing? Its not always about what you get back.
is that a loaded question? Blessing from whom ever it is that you have chosen to give sacrifice to of course..
I'm not trying to attack you Heron--it just seems to me that words might suffice instead of sacrificing an animal.Maybe I'm naive about these things.In the grand scheme of things,I suppose it doesn't matter one way or the other.I reckon it just offends my sensibilities for an animal to die for something intangible that a human wants.Then again --what the fuck do I know.I admit -not much.
I never understood animal sacrifice...and I'd never sacrifice one myself, so I'll stick with flowers and incense.
I think it's wrong because we shouldn't sacrifice a being that can't defend/decide for himself. Why not just sacrifice yourself in harmless ways, like simply thanking. If I'm wrong though, feel free to educate me.
Scratcho and bbbeccaaaa... Scratcho first..."die for something intangible that a human wants"....It is not about what a human wants...its about what a deity wants....I didnt say sacrifice a goat and ask for a present... bbbeccaaaa...."Why not just sacrifice yourself in harmless ways, like simply thanking"....That works with some things... but...Certain deities like the blood sacrifice...and some like the burnt offering.. If I wanted to appease a cthonic deity, i might sacrifice a black goat....as a prayer, offering or whatever...The goat becomes sacred..the blood life restoring and sustaining, the meat becomes blessed...and the blessing becomes consumed.. Im not talking about just killing a goat... There are many many levels to this thing we all call pagan.... Some people have hearth deities...some have earth deities, some farming deities, etc....and some have underworld deities... that is what i have been refering to with "cthonic". These deities have different workings than the others, and when dealing with the death aspects of the older ways, it has to be understood in such a way. Sometimes, in some instances, blood offering is needed to sustain the spirit of a place...less it fades away and moves on....so...burning candles, placing flowers and writing little spells do them no good....
Heron, I think what you're talking about is part of an old path that only exists rarely in our society today. What one might see as a blessing has been turned into something "wrong" in the eyes of society. It's not that there is actually anything wrong with sacrifice, but when it's senseless slaughter with no connection to the intent of the ceremony, that's where I have a problem with it. In all fairness though, most Pagans and Witches today don't have access to animals to slaughter, or a need. We've moved from a practical application of offering a portion of our yearly bounty to a deity that has contributed to our prosperity, to a society that is disconnected from the food source. The number of rural Pagans and Witches that have access to, and need of animals to slaughter is minimal. Sacrificing a 'cat' say has no practical purpose. It has no place in the traditional ceremonies for the offerings. If a Pagan slaughtered an animal such as a cat for a ritual, it would be as removed from the intent of the ceremony as not offering anything at all, or only offering incense. You just don't see people raising their own livestock, or even acknowledging where the meat comes from in some cases. Think about the blood of the animals that are slaughtered in the slaughterhouses. The blood of these animals goes down the drain and into the sewers and ends up, who knows where. A practicing Pagan of the old ways would see the blood of the animal as part of life and hold it sacred. Some of it may be offered on the alter, but the majority of it went directly to the source, to the fields and trees. This was the "Pay Off" You can go to the local feed store and buy blood meal, or if you happen to be a rural Pagan of the old ways, you can cut out the middle man. Blood is life, we can't deny that, and I can't judge someone for taking the blood of a slaughtered animal into the fields instead of washing it down a drain and into a sewer. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on cthonic rituals, but my response is to the Practice of sacrifice in general. I'm really glad that you started this thread because this is just the kind of thing that we need to be thinking about. Sorry the response is so short and vague, but I'll try to write more later. River
I personally would never sacrafice any type of blood offering. Just not something I feel comfortable with, nor do I see a need to do so.
OK, short answer: It's not something I'd do, but can understand and respect other's choice to if they so wish. I haven't eaten meat for years, and that's not likely to change. The modern meat industry just feels very soulless (from a spiritual and welfare perspective) to me, so I try not to have anything to do with it. Probably wouldn't sacrific much of my own blood either, having a general aversion to pain/needles (it's a very good survival instinct); as the Gods made me that way I'm sure we'll be able to work something out [uh that sounds a bit flaky, does it?, which I wasn't intended]. That said I don't have the squeamishness that many veg*ans have about meat. Can see how sacrifices/hunting/meat fits into the grand scheme of things, and the spiritual principles behind it. I do respect our ancestors choices there, and understand their reasoning to a certain degree. Hell even human sacrifices don't really phase me. Their lot in life must have been better than last year's thanksgiving turkeys. Even in modern times if the animal is treated as the gift from the Gods that all creatures are, and their life has a purpose, well then I'm not going to complain. Though of course it's not all that practical in modern times (River put that better than I could). So I suppose ultimatly we should maintain the practises but allow the to adapt to our current way of life. As an example, I know of someone makes their blood sacrifices by way of donating at a blood bank.
Thanks for the great answers, really covering the full opinion of our local community here... River, good to meet you, and thanks for the insight...i am glad to have stirred some interest in here... The reason i wanted to hear some perspective is that it is become a bit of a taboo with neopagans...to the point of it being a shame like "We are not satanists and we dont sacrifice animals" being a pretty common statement...Some people are satanists, and some sacrifice animals, and the two are completly unrelated... I think some idiots killing an animal for the shock value...or sense of validity is not "sacrifice" but instead a senseless killing of an innocent....so they shouldnt be put those in the same category. Erzebet, what has your family done in the past generations? Would love to hear from someone with family ties.
OK, just wanted to add a couple of things and clarify something. In my earlier post, I said "If a Pagan slaughtered an animal such as a cat for a ritual, it would be as removed from the intent of the ceremony as not offering anything at all, or only offering incense." I just wanted to clarify this statement because I'm sure someone will misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not trying to de-value the practice of offering incense, or flowers, or whatever. These are symbolic offerings and are very valid substitutes, however, if I am a Pagan in the ultimate sense of the word, and I am slaughtering a goat or lamb or whatever for consumption/celebration and instead of giving the blood of the animal as a sacrifice, I decided to go inside and grab the family cat, or burn some incense on the alter instead, these things aren't connected with the slaughter of the animal, or the deity that I'm thanking for the animals flesh to feed my family. Most Pagans today are not Pagan in the ultimate sense of the word. The word 'Pagan' is derived from the Latin word Paganus and really means country dweller. It came to be used in reference to people who were not conquered by Christianity because the country dweller was more difficult to convert given their remote locations and strong ties to the land, nature etc... Most Pagans today are removed from the sacrificial process as much by evolution as by Christian influence. In a world of agri-business how many people even think about what they consume, let alone give thanks for it? My point, as convoluted as it may seem, is that a vegetarian, or someone living in the city having no connection to an agrarian lifestyle whatsoever can burn incense as a way of paying tribute because it's not practical for them to do otherwise. Since they don't rely on any one piece of land for their bounty, these offerings are more symbolic, and in no way less meaningful. In the end, it's the intent, and the intent to recognize the forces at work that provide our bounty is what's important to me. Heron, although I don't have any livestock at the moment, if you were to ever slaughter a goat, or whatever in your celebration of harvest, I'd be more than happy to bring the wine, mead, bread etc... and dance round the fire! Peace
There are times where the sacrificed would be buried or burned...with no consumption...but again, depends on the person and reason....I am fine with eating it afterwards...giving the blood to the underworld...and eating the blessed meat...then making things from every bone, flutes from the legs, drum from the skin...and I could go on....many things would come out of this sacrifice... I live in a very rural area....I have delivered calves and buried horses...i have seen both ends of the cycle...I have taken food from running in the forest, to roasting in the grill in the course of hours....I live a very connected life...more so than most at least...and not as connected as I would like... I have heard the apartment city dweller excuse for lots of things...and cant understand it because I have never had that problem...I have a house with land...and land way out in the forest....flowing water, wildlife and artifacts... so i guess i am to spoiled in the bounty of my area to truely understand the side of the city folk... River...you are invited anytime brother. With Honor..Ogmios.
That sounds wonderful, would love to do my part and join the party Where I live the forest is five minutes one way and five minutes the other way and you'll be in the sea. The connection to the land/sea is still quite strong, though most people are too busy with their suburban lives to look. The city can be good for a lot of things, but I spent a year living in the heart of it and kept wanting to escape. I suppose people find what works for them, and if that's being a city pagan well fair enough. Not for me either though.
You really do feel something primeval when you take a deer from the forest and eat it over a fire that you've created. I live on 20 acres that borders a national forest, so I too feel blessed. I have had times in my life that I was confined to an apartment in a city (mostly when I was in college) and you do what you can under the circumstances. I feel connected at times, but those times are not as frequent as I'd like. Right now I'm trying to focus on finding as much in nature as I can to sustain myself. Yesterday, I went hunting for mushrooms, dug sassafras for tea and gathered acorns for bread. It's an awesome feeling. Let me know when the drumming starts and I'll be there Heron, Mississippi isn't that far away! ~River~
Paganism is not something I have looked into,but you-all have given me enough information to begin to understand that it's an interesting mind-set and decent way to live one's life.Being an agnostic,tinged with atheism,I'm not much into deities,but from what I read here,you-all are much closer to the earth than most of us.Far be it from me to judge--we all probably have to bear our own Karma.Maybe.Thanks for the info.
