Last weekend I went to a Congress about Christian Theology. It was organized by religious people and by theology/philosophy teachers. So...From what I heard there, from what I read and from what I learned in Church: Human beings, contrary to animals, are intelligible and endowed with Reason. There for, they have souls. Reason was almost like a gift that divided and classified beings, according to God's will. He gave Reason to Humanity 'cause He created Man at His image. And, in a very simple way of telling things, honest souls, devoted to God, are immortal and go to Heaven. Animals aren't rational, so they don't have souls, so their lives end when their bodies die ('cause that's all they got - organic substance). This is what most Christian Churches officially defend. Do you agree? What do you think of this? This is specially directed to the Christian people in here, so when you answer please tell if you are Christian or not... Thanks
Here is a good article on the topic: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/Writings/Revolution/animals.html And a few more from other perspectives: http://wondersbook1.myanimalcenter.com/371.shtml http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/philosophy/doanimal.htm Now I am not a christian, so I wouldn't believe animals had souls either way, but reason...I would have to agree with the opinion of the writer of the first article I wrote. I think of humans as animals. All animals are different in intelligence, longevity, appearance, etc...but are animals just the same.
you mean....i won't meet my dogs in heaven? *breaks down crying* well im a christian and though its said animals dont have sould or go to "animal heaven", i would like to think they would go to heaven with me...or at least be there when i arrive.
-Atheist, nihilist. What is your definition of Reason? If reason is the ability of a being to think rationally, I would say non-human animals are more susceptible to reason because they are not, necessarily, capable of abstract thought. If reason is intellgence than your God created an orangutan with 98% the same DNA as us. Obviously not intelligent as we are but certainly capable of thought and premeditation. Take the ape that uses a stick piercing an antbed and predictably the ants crawl up the stick and the ape eats them. That is intelligence, is it not? Then perhaps it is our ability to communicate verbally. But really all that we were given that greatly seperates us from apes in basic communication are our vocal cords. Apes can communicate with sign language, which is conceptually, the same as verbal communication. But assuming that dolphins and apes (and every other animal for the most part) are not intelligent, why do you think this intelligence or capability of reasoning that humans (apparently soley) possess points to the existence of a soul?
I'm a pantheist/freely spiritual type person. Anyways, I agree with thumontico; I mean, we know thought is a product of the brain. So just because we have more developed organic material in our heads than a monkey, we have souls and they don't? Why would god love us more than the rest of his creation, such that he would destroy everything but us? It doesn't make sense.
For land animals, the ratio of brain size to spinal cord length is a good measurement method for intelligence. We top the list, and are followed by apes, monkeys, etc. on down the line. It gets interesting when you look at the whales, though, since orcas, and porpoises, for example, have a higher ratio than us...... Maybe they are more intelligent? Reason, in my view, is an overrated, misused quality that we as homo sapiens sapiens have a little too much of. Some more heart would be more useful.
christian......hmmm tough one....i think there wud b animals in heaven.....i think that animals still ahv spirits......just not free will or anythin like that?
CHRISTIAN!!! yeh this Q is quite hard... animals cant accept jesus bcoz their minds rnt intelligant (neither am i by my spellin!) enough... hmm... im confused... i will ask my pastor or uth pastor....
saying that animals arent intelligent, is just a simple sign of stupidity.. and quite strange you mentions dolphins BG, as i think they one of the smarter animals in the world.. and good post thumontico.. definately shows some good points.. and arlia.. why dont animals have free will? i think the majority (except for some domestic/caged animals etc.) have much more free will that humans.
omg.. thats it one of the more ignorant things ive heard on this forum.. i have two dogs.. ones still a puppy.. shes a english bulldog, with quite a mouth. it didnt take long to teach her thats its wrong to bite us. a german shepard my family use to own was the best guarddog ive ever seen.. wihtin a day of getting him from the pound he was running to gate to stop my father into our yard (they hadnt met yet) and once stoped a man running through our backyard (who we later found out had robbed a few houses down the road and was running from the police).. he didnt harm him, just pounced at him and pinned him to the ground and barked. he knew what was right to do and what was wrong. we never had to train him and before the pound he had an abusive owner (so i would have thought he would have been more hostile to humans).. he was a perfect example of a dog with morals. have you ever seen a mother defend her young? i believe that would constitute even. do you see domestic animals killing each other? even in wild packs, killing of their own is generally only a power struggle (which i think humans are very responsible of as well). even my cat knows a simple right/wrong situation!! (i just remembered something) my cats are generally quite lovable, but as with most cats, if you try to pat em when they dont wanna be theyll warn you with some good ol extended claws. the oldest of my cat was no stranger to scratching people if they wouldnt leave him alone. but no matter how much you annoyed him hed never consider scratching anyone on the face. hed go for arms or anything, but if the face was the only option hed run. he knew the difference between making a stand and actually harming the person.
i dont mean liek that,dogs can be trained,just like children,but its not the same as humans? do dogs fight for justice? do dogs choosethe way they live.......i mean hell yeah dogs are cute,adn they do things thats in theyre nature,but they dont hav the same thinking as we do,surely u must see wat i mean,im not sayin animals are dumn,i love animals,they jsut dont ahv the same kinda advanced thinking that we do
if a dog is trained, to know the difference between right and wrong, and a child is trained, to know the difference between right and wrong, how is this different? our shepard was never trained, and he was like a freckon police dog. hed do anything to protect my mum (and family, although she took first priority) dogs do fight for justice, have you never seen a police dog? dogs do choose the way they live, maybe not if theyre in a pen, but what about dingos, foxes etc. you seem to be thinking of only domestic animals. prides work effectively and have done so for many years. they live how they want and it works for them. many animals have far more advanced thinking than humans do, or atleast many scientists believe so. many animals hunt in packs, creating traps includings decoys and planned ambushes, and its been documented quite well. animals work in perfect equilibrium with their enviroment. humans on the other hand seem to have no concept of equilibrium, they move to a place and consume, and once the resources are exhausted they move on to another place. to semiquote the matrix, the only other organism to act like humans are viruses. if we were smarter (and less powered by greed and other sorts) we could adapt and create and equilibrium..
im gona look in2 this more!]coz tis has confused me fro a while also! i respect and love animals,and i know that animals were created to ahv relationship with each other,and we were created to take care of them,and we were also created to hav a friendship with god,animals are part of gods creation and we are responsible for looking after them and respecting theyre life. but they are not the same as humans,they do not hav souls. im really gona look in2 this coz i wud h8 fro u to think that im against animals or i think all animals are dum and worthless,coz animals are a beautiful tihng and im so glad that sooooo many differant types fill the earth so that we can enjoy them.
we werent created to take care of animals!?! animals were around before us and many, many animals live without human assistance. to state that animals dont have a soul without reason (except it was gift!!) is shear ignorance and claiming superiority. i dont believe in souls or an afterlife so i wont try to argue that they do, but if humans do then animals would. we are just animals of course
we are not animals,we were made in the likeness of god! no we wernt created before animals after,so we cud enjoy creaton,the finished product......im sure if we were around before the whole world waas created we wud have done something to ruin it! animals are part of gods masterpiece for us to enjoy. and im sorry that to u i sound ignorant,but it is truth,we are superior ot animals,but that does not mean that theyre lives have no worth
humans have never been superior to animals, except in destroying any chance of equilibrium. we were made in the likeness of god, by your perspective. id rather take the south park view and have god as being a wierd multicoloured creatured that catches flies with its long tongue. if we are like god, then god must be murderous, among other sinful deeds. its human nature to kill, while some do repel it, just look at history. never in recorded history have humans not killed each other for conquest (or entertainment). we are animals. we have the same cell structure. we cannot bunch all the different types of animals together as one group and then seperate humans from them because were suposedly made in gods image. if god turned out to be a dog then that would make dogs superior than every other animal, and they wouldnt be clased as animals, by your definition
just thought of another thing.. what about the human with a low intelligence? the human who doesnt know the difference between right and wrong.. the human without morals.. what about somebody born with a mental illness, that actually restricts him from ever being able to tell the difference between something being right or wrong.. is this person prohibited from a soul? is this person not allowed an afterlife due to this..
Or the person who does everything religion says a good man should do. But goes to hell... beacause he will NOT pay royalties on GOOD. Fully half of humanity has not 'understood the word' They ALL go to hell because god made them as creatures that exist to go to hell. He made reason. And reason says mythic religion is founded in NO real phenomena. Contradiction. Occam Occam
