Beltane celebrations anyone?

Anyone got any Beltane plans this October? What did the Northern Hemisphere do for Beltane earlier this year?

 

Up in the northern hemisphere, a number of us did stuff with what we call Maypoles.

 

i met my lover on beltane. and it looks like i'll be breaking up with him soon.

 

THe celebration of European holidays in the southern Hemisphere always puzzled me. Beltane is more that just the spring celebration, its not like the Equinoxes, where of course they are opposite down there, but Beltane is the celebration of the union of Bael and the Earth Mother, and the product of their union, which is the Celtic people. Dont get me wrong, for it to be celebrated twice a year is ok by me, but unless its a solstice or equinox, it should be celebrated on its actual date.

Samhain is October 31, regardless of where you live, there are certain things in line at that time of year that makes the day what it is, yes is has seasonal influences, but the day is sacred because of what takes place, not what time of the year it is.

I just dont get it.

In australia, is Christmas on December 25, or June 25? I assume its December 25 right?

Anyway, this past year we harvested grasses, made a big wicker man, all gave offerings, and burned him. We also had some mead for spirit.

Year before last, it rained so the wicker man fizzled. But we all drank inside, and eventually paired off and made love.

 

you seem to have a lot of strong opinions about who is entitled to celebrate which spiritual systems, where.

heron, i really, really like a lot of your other posts, but religions grow, change and spread, because people do. i know you're going to take offense to this, and that's really not my intent, but it really shouldn't be anyone's business where someone's spiritual system originates. people have been moving all over the planet & sharing/appropriating symbols since before recorded history. (i know you're going to ask my source, so i'll tell you now that i learned that fact in my college-level ancient art-history class, in which i earned an A+.)

it's the nature of all human-made symbols to grow and change over time, and personally i believe that spiritual/racial/geographic purism hinders this growth. that's not to say one should not honor & celebrate local or hereditary energies - but if one finds their personal truth in a symbol from elsewhere, they should be able to embrace that symbol without having to provide justification. look at the korean christians, or the american buddhists. if some one grows and feels the spiritual language of another physical locale or cultural origin helps them understand themselves better, and become a better person, it is still a good thing.

as for reasons why, which i know you are keen to learn, again, no offense intended, but that isn't really your business. spirituality and religion are very personal by their very nature. although, if you still require an explaination, consider the example of america (i know we're talking about southern hemisphere, but this is an example) that is such a mix of cultures and peoples that migrated from many different places, often generations ago, that there really is no culture here native to the US. and no, native american traditions are not "belonging" to the nation we now know as the US. they belong to the diverse nations of peoples that were here before the US, from whom we have already stolen more than enough. my ancestors were irish, but i feel no connection with celtic traditions - and neither has anyone in my family. hell, my grandfather didn't even stay with the catholic church. why should i pretend those symbols and traditions are "mine", simply because it satisfies someone else's idea of "racial appropriateness" or "purity"? it's not relevant anymore, either to my faith, family or religion. and i'm sure the same goes for followers of european-based paganism in the southern hemisphere.

 

I said nothing of racial appropriateness or purity. I simply said how can you celebrate a holiday on its opposite, with the exception of solar influenced holidays?

of course Australians can celebrate European holidays, if for nothing more
than being European themselves, thats not the argument. I asked why the
holiday gets flipped just to keep some kind of "Wiccan" calendar.

And catholic has nothing to do with Irish. Catholic is roman.

And why cant can i ask why? and why cant you answer my question.

I am an anthropology student, it is my nature to ask why people do
what they do and how.

Your example of korean christians and american buddhists is a bad one,
because american christians are no more authentic than korean ones,
and american buddhists are just as valid as chinese ones. Seeing that
Christianity started in the middle east, based on Semitic faith, and
Buddhism is from India.

Buddhism is a way of life, more than a religion anyway, but no matter
where it is, it is mixed into the indigenous faiths, so they are buddhist
in thought, but (depending on their "type" of buddhism) they still
worship their own cultural gods.

I know people move around, they take their faith and gods with them,
but if a holiday is on a certain day of a certain month, they don't flip
it just because the move south of the equator.

Like I asked, do Australian Christians celebrate Christmas on June 25?
no they dont. They celebrate it on the same day that the rest of the
Christian world does, because that is when Christmas is.

So, unless it is a solstice or an equinox, they should be celebrated on
their actual day.

Is Valentines in celebrated in August in Australia? no it isnt.

But if you celebrate Beltane SOLEY as the start of summer,
then i could support the switch a little more, but the holiday is
so much more than that, so summer should just be summer,
Beltane and Samhain only became season starts later on, they
are much more than that.

But like i said, you are trying to fit it into the Wiccan calendar,
so it lines up, which i cant agree to.

 

the reason why i object to repeated and seemingly judgemental (you are the one who chooses to use the term "valid") questions justifying a persons choice of worship is because, anthropology student or not, they are personal reasons, and the questions are invasive. the reason why you cannot expect an answer is because it is personal, and none of your business.

no one, of any faith, should be harrassed into explaining or justifying their personal spirituality by anyone, no matter what subject they study. this goes for irish catholics (and my irish ancestors considered their catholicism to be very much part of their irish heritage, and owe no justification to you) american buddhists, and eurpoean wiccan ecclectics practicing in australia. authenticity does not equal validity, and it is rude and invasive to pass judgement on either, in regards to anyone's personal faith.

(for the record: catholicism came to ireland via the byzantine catholics, not the roman invaders. most of the early irish catholics converted freely, not by the roman sword. that is why the irish made such a priority of documenting, rather than destroying or altering, so much celtic pagan lore: their priorities were different. the famous knotwork associated with illuminated irish texts is not truly celtic in origin, despite its name, but byzantine. similar influences can be seen in early islamic art and architecture, originating in the same part of the world. i can quote a source on this, but you may have to wait awhile as i'm currently homeless and most of my books are in storage.)

 

She's right, neither Roman Empires ever even found Ireland. The furthest they got was the Isle of Man, which was a druidic enclave. And it was immediately destroyed since Druids were to be executed on sight by direct order of every emperor from Gaius Julius through Constantine XI.

Yeah, 1500 years of slaughter. Any questions why there are no records of ancient Pagan worship and Druidic rites? Bonus question: What caused the fall of the Roman Empire?

 

Kitty i am not judging anyone. I just like to know why people believe that way they do, and all i asked is how you can just flip a holiday because you want to.

You have the right to not answer, I am not prying, but I will defend my point if you accuse me of being judgmental and arguing for racial purity.

Im sorry that I stepped over the Neo-pagan "worship how i want" line,
but I asked out of curiousity, seeking an explanation. I wasnt judging anyone, or accusing them of being invalid.

As to Byzantine knotwork, you are mistaken. "Celtic" knotwork was the product of Anglo-Saxon monks. Look at the book of kells for an example.

For the bonus question, i assume it had something to do with spreading out too far, discention amoung the ranks, and the spliting of the empire into two.

But i am not that well versed in Roman history, aside from their influences in the Celtic world.

In regards to the Romans and Ireland, they knew where it was, they named the people Scots. They knew Ireland, just never stepped foot there.

 

The only place i used the word "valid" was in agreement with you! That american buddhists are just as "valid" as Chinese ones. That wasnt judgemental, that was supportive.

 

Actually the first empire fell into madness attributed to their own "advances". The aquaduct was lined with lead to make it waterproof and it poisoned them. But worse, white lead powder was used for many, many years as a sweetener in the emperor's wine cellars. Lead poisoning does funny things when is builds up in the bone structure and is then suddenly released into the brain.

 

god, thats just messed up. Never heard that before. Thanks for the new
roman trivia man lol, always good to know little things like that.

 

oh, jeez, make me drag out thebig heavy book...*sigh* i'm trying to type with gardner's art through the ages balanced on my lap. thing weighs a ton, wonder how i managed to carry it to class 3 times a week...this is a huge-ass book, i've got chinese food ordered, and i have to beon a bus to woodstock at 4 in the morning, so i can't read in the detail i'd like. for starters, i can't find the fucking book of kells in here, although i know we covered it...gimme a year, wiil ya, or at least a century? the book of lindisfarne is discussed in detail, though. as far as i can tell, the intricate knotwork in that illuminated texts and others of the same period was a sythesis of mediterranean and anglo-saxon styles, and many of the texts were produced both in ireland and anglo-saxon england:

"the encounter between irish and roman christianity during the missionary enterprise is reflected in the commingling of ornamental elements on the illuninated pages of gospel books produced in ireland and anglo-sacon england between the seventh and ninth centuries. these books were easy to transport and we can follow their movements from place to place in sequence and influence."

i'll post more in a minute, but my sesame bean curd has just arrived.

 

heron, for a start I am not "Wiccan" so I am not trying to fit Beltane into a Wiccan calendar at all, reversed or not.

Beltane is a fertility ritual, and so is meant to be celebrated is spring. It is a celebration of fruits, and fertility, and new life. There are feasts held in Autumn, too, as you know. It is more than just a "spring celebration", but your theory of the marriage of Bael and the birth of the Celtic People is only one theory. I am not celebrating this at all. Never have, won't this time around. I am also sure you are aware that there is much disagreement on the origins of "Beltane" the festival, and "Beltane" the word.

I don't find your questions intrusive, personally, but do be aware that not every treads the same path. Just as not all Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25. The dates for Christmas vary quite widely, by months in fact, between different sects of Christianity. Are you going to say that the others are "wrong"? That Urkranian Orthodox, for instance, is wrong because they celebrate Christmas in January?

I'm not "flipping a holiday just because I want to", I am celebrating the Great Fire Festival of Spring, which is called Beltane, and is held in early Spring, and not always on 31st of a given month.

 

oh, man, i just love how they fry the tofu, and it gets all crispy-chewy. but the sauce is too sweet if you ask me....where was i? i'm not going to go pawing through the big art book right now, because i have duck sauce all over my fingers. but the point i was making above was, the illuminated texts displayed a synthesis of styles. whether the knotwork had its origins in ireland or the middle east, however, is irrelevant to what i was saying before: irish catholics weren't roman.

as for your interest in people's reasons, it does come off as a bit judgemental when you repeatedly demand explainations for personal practices, and keep bringing up race as an issue. it comes across as confrontational, and a bit xenophobic, whether or not that's your intent. most people, (in the states, anyway) i imagine, choose/are chosen by a religion/deity/spiritual system for reasons other than race, culture, or physical location. here in the states at least, those reasons seldom even enter into the picture, as most of us are divorced from our ancestral cultural roots. usually it is more the poetry of the myth that speaks to the follower.

as for the holidays, your example of christmas is perhaps ill-chosen, as that is not a seasonal holiday, but (supposedly) the celebration of an specific event (which actually took place in a different time) but the point is, christians the world over (more or less) celebrate christmas all on the same date because it joins them together. it is a global act of community. the wiccan holidays, however, are solar in nature. the equinoxes and solstices are the easiest to figure out; they are simply reversed in the southern hemisphere. the 4 remaining sabbats are usually celebrated on a specific date (august 1 for lughnasadh, for example) but they are still solar in nature, celebrating the cycle of the sun. we tend to celebrate them on a specific date for simplicity's sake, but actually they are cross-quarter days: beltane celebrates the mid-point between the vernal equinox and summer solstice, but the actual date is a pain in the ass to calculate, so it's celebrated on the first of may. close enough. we're all running on "pagan time" anyway. most of us celebrate the saturday closest to the sabbat, so we don't have to miss work the next day. (mead induces some nasty hangovers, after all.) the date isn't as important as the seasonal observance. whether it's may 1 or the actual cross-quarter days, it's the rising fecundity of springtime that's celebrated at beltane - which, in the southern hemisphere, happens in october.

 

I'm celebrating it on the 30th this year, because that is when all my friends and family can come. Thank you, kitty fabulous, for more fully explaining the cross quarter when I was too lazy to. The "not always on the 31st (or 30th) holds true if you count the days from the equinox, as some do. This is no more or less correct than holding it on a specific date. Different traditions is all.

 

I already said that if you are celebrating Beltaine strictly as the start of a season, that I could back the flip more. So i am not opposing that, i just dont think the word Beltaine should be attached to it just because it is the start of summer. The start of summer in Celtic Europe is called Beltaine, is wasnt called Beltaine in other parts of the world, BUT regardless, i just wanted to know. I wasnt judging or saying it was wrong.

I didnt mean to start a big debate, and surely didnt mean to make kitty call me xenophobic, and for that matter pretty much ethnocentric.

I understand the whole cross-quarter day system, and that is a Neo-pagan arrangement of Wiccan origin. Im sorry, but it is.

The Celts of old, who celebrated Beltaine did not celebrate the Spring Equinox and certainly didnt call it Ostara, nor did they celebrate Yule. They only had two seasons, summer and winter, marked by Beltaine and Samhain.

But my argument is that Samhain is Samhain not because of the summer ending (though that is the meaning of the word) as it is the arrangement of planets and stars, etc, that make the elements right for the veil to be thinned and all other of the supernatural parts of the holiday.

Plus, its a new year celebration, you cant celebrate the same new year twice in a year. It just doesnt make sense, and that is why i want to know why it is done.

Sorry i offended you kitty, sorry that i came across as judgemental, but your argument is that religion is personal, but somethings have structure and can
be questioned if it is changed.

As to Catholic religion, it was all Roman to begin with.

and what exactly came across as xenophobic anyway?

 

It isn't celebrated twice a year. It is celebrated once. You celebrate it once, I celebrate it once. The same way I celebrate New Years Eve once on a certain date, and my Chinese cooking tutor celebrates New Years Eve once on another date. The same way an Eastern Orthodox person celebrates Christmas once on a certain date, and my mother celebrates Christmas once on another date. No-one is "wrong", they are different traditions.

Beltane is not connected to a certain configuraion of stars for me. If it is for you that is fine. But don't project and announce that the way you celebrate it is the ony way. You are judging and saying it is wrong if you say I should not call Beltane Beltane. What name would you call the great spring celebration then?

Beltane is one of the two great festivals of the year, saying I can't celebrate it properly because I live in the Southern Hemipshere. I'm sure not celebrating Samhain right now. That would be way too odd. It's an Autumn festival after all, like it or not.

 

In a way you are right about the cross-quarters, heron, and in a way you are wrong. They Celts may not have had major celebrations on the equinoxes, but they did count from them to get thier date of Beltane/Samhain. These dates were not tied to the Gregorian calendar.

 

jeez, heron, get a life. who cares if the system is neo-pagan wiccan? no one's claiming otherwise. we do it that way, and call it by those names, because we *like* it that way. and to irritate nit-picking anal retentive little twits like you.

quantum physics tells us the universe is constantly re-created every moment. so we can celebrate the new year as many times as we damn well please, and it doesn't have to make sense.