Two things I have been wondering about: 1. Is Buddhism deterministic? 2. Is Buddhism hedonistic? (1.) The bottom line of the teaching of Buddhism according to Sangharakshita is dependant origination (or conditionality). I am a little confused as to whether this is deterministism, I don't think it is. Sid always taught that we have a choice of actions (otherwise where would the kusala/akusala teaching come in), so this stirs things up a bit. (2.) Another bottom line according to many Buddhists is the teaching "Whatever makes you happy is my teaching". I know that is a paraphrase as the happiness that the Buddha speaks of is something higher (the full quote being "Whatever brings you away from attachment, whatever brings you away from hatred, whatever brings you away from greed, [a few more of these]. This is my teaching"). If happiness is all we want as Buddhists is that not just a form of hedonism? I would like to hear your responses to this
1. Dependent origination is the view that all things have effectively no essential basis in reality, so as to prove the voidness of all things. That said, the ultimate is not also nothing, and no thing, it merely is, as suchness. This is an experience had through meditation, and dependent origination isn't meant as an excuse, or rationale for causation. 2. Certain Buddhists do live their lives in seemingly hedonistic and nihilistic fashion, but this isn't the Buddha's teaching. His teaching is specifically about searching for the ultimate nirvana through meditation and renunciation of all means not in line with that goal.
About the second part of your question, is it hedonism, I think the answer is no. Although one might think this at first glance, Buddhism is different from Hedonism. (As I understand it) Hedonism is doing whatever makes you feel good in the moment. For example, if constantly playing a violent computer game gives you pleasure in the moment, then do it. However, if you look at that quote, Buddha does not mean simply do whatever gives you happiness or pleasure in the moment, but do what will give true, and lasting happiness to you. The person who plays the violent computer game is a hedonist, they get pleasure from playing the game. However this person is not reflecting the teaching of the Buddha, because this does not bring true happiness. I have used this example from my own personal life, in which my brother has become a hedonist in his actions even if he doesn't fully realize it. Playing violent games give him fleeting pleasure, and to perpetually feel this ecstacy he constantly plays it, into the early morning hours. This turns out being destructive, and a hindrance in finding the path to real happiness. In reference to the quote: the person is attached to the feeling the game gives them; the game in times stimulates anger and hatred toward others (jealousy, defeat, etc.); and the person becomes constantly hungry and greedy for the feeling they get from the game; So, Hedonism and Buddhist are two very different sometimes even contradictory things. Namate, Diana
My view: Dependant origination is not simply cause and effect. It is not saying that everything is caused, or determined. It is saying that everything is dependantly arising. All things arise in relation to all other things. This means that there can be no cause without an effect. AND there can be no effect without a cause. They arise mutually. So even though A is dependant on B. B is also dependant on A. There is no cause unless there is an effect. And the other way around. This is not determinism as determinism only flows one way. I am not familiarwith this quote, but let's look at it: If happiness is found, it is found, so we experience it in "real time". Not to do this would be not in accordance with Buddhism. It would become a problem if we became attached to this happiness. It is here, we enjoy, it is gone, we move on. Non-attachment brings you away from these. Greed, hatred, etc. are all forms of attachment. They are the result of trying to cling to happiness. Now, I would say that it is not happiness that you should seek, but contentment with what is, which is Ultimate Happiness.
Thank you people I like your replies. Chodpa: I liked your response on dependant origination. It now makes so much more sense. Diana: Thank you, nice analogy. When I said that Sid meant something higher when talking about happiness I did mean that happiness does not exist in computer games and the like. You cleared up the definition of hedonism for me though - that it is happiness of the moment, not of the eternal. Meagain: I liked your response to the Hedonism bit. Action done in Hatred, Greed (attachment) and/or ignorance are known as unskillful actions [akusala] and bring unhappiness. Actions done in compassion, generosity (equinimity) and/or understanding are known as skillful actions [kusala] and bring happiness. I am a bit confused about how B influences A. If you could use an analogy that would be brilliant. BLessings Sebbi
Sebbi, I'll give it a shot... My arguement is that the statement A causes B is the same as saying that B causes A. Or, cause and effect arise mutually. You can not have cause without effect or efect without cause. Let's take an example... As I use my computer mouse I find that the cursor on the screen does not respond correctly as I move the mouse about the pad. I immediately look for a cause. Scince I'm cheap, I'm using a mechanical mouse. I remove the ball and notice that dust has accumulated on the little rollers inside the mouse thereby hampering the roller movments and screwing up the switches' messages to the computer. I remove the dirt, reassemble the mouse, and it works. So, we have the effect, poor mouse response and the cause, dust accumulation. A - dust causes B - poor mouse response. Dust occurs first then poor mouse response. Now, we look the other way around... If there is no poor mouse response, effect, there is no dust, cause. If the mouse does not screw up I never look for a cause, there is none. There is no cause until there is an effect. They arise mutually. Now, you could say, "But the dust must accumulate first, before the mouse can screw up". This is true, but it does not cause anything until the effect has happened. This dust can lie about inside that mouse for eternity and no cause is to be found until the effect has occured. It is just dust. It hasn't caused anything. A - the dust, does not cause B - poor mouse response until B - poor mouse response, occurs, at which time I will look around and discover the cause, dust. Notice that A and B occur at the same time. Does this make sense? I think I have it right here. LOL
*Buddhism is different from Hedonism ? Yes, cause being freed, or realized person, or living as the Sid or Padma state (and there is many personnalities who could have experienced that), you dont experience sad or happy thing. You experience things. Its a different inner state. *Buddhism is different from derterminism ?. Is your defintion of determinism linkedto the principle of the the Karma wheel (in french we say: la roue du Karma) so you could be determined to act, by your past(in that life (by you perception of yourself, or in past lifes). I think it is true that spirit survive to death and can incarnate in a new body after a while. It is true for every mind/spirit that have existed, could it be an higher one or a lower one. For the higher ones we say that high Buddha incarnation were freed from the Karma wheel. No? But an higher one as been at lower state in past lives. (certainly, many things and talent of people are not explainable if not) And if not, you have no reason to try to live your life in the path of what you experience as being truth. Take care, with love. Ps: just read the first post before writing (i'm in such a hurry, ahah). peace.
Causal Determinism? The Young Disciple asked The Ancient Wanderer, "When I awaken, will I have escaped Causation?" The Ancient Wanderer replied, "When you awaken, you will be ONE with Causation!" Causal Relations are not false, but our mesmerized Monkey Minds have been hypnotized by the tic toc rythm of cause and effect, action and reaction. Our Primate Psyche, fixated by the appearance of separation between cause and effect, has fallen under the spell of object subject separation. The neurotic alienating separation of the knower from the known isthe foundation of our entire objective-knowledge based education from Mommy's knee to the highest post-graduate doctoral studies. We have been indoctrinated to objectify everything. We objectify nature. We objectify other races. We objectify the opposite sex. We objectify, and will objectify, every relationship we have or ever will have. The Man in the Mountain said, "Only those who don't know, truely know!" The Great Awakening is not a State of Knowing it is a State of Being. We must BE the wind, to know the wind. When sweeping bareback across the open prairies, I and my steed are one. One motion, one grace, one being. When loosing the arrow, I loose myself. As the arrow flies, I fly. And the pulsing heart of my prey, is my pulsing heart. I neither escape the cause and effect, nor do I objectify it; IT IS ME!
