Buddhism vs Taoism

They both involve ways of life, living well and peacefully, but I am wondering which would be more beneficial to at least try. I also have issues with certain beliefs they have. How do you get past that?



I found this information through google.. I'm not sure what to make of it.



Geographical predominance
Buddhism: Tibet, Sri Lanka.
Taoism: Asia, North America.
Founder
Buddhism: Gautama Buddha.
Taoism: Lao Tzu.
Principle/about
Buddhism: Desire leads to suffering. Let go of desire. Follow the Buddha.

Taoism: Life is good. Taoism lays emphasis on the body. Philosophy focussed on compassion, moderation and humility.
(Taoism sounds preferable here..)

Goal of philosophy
Buddhism: Enlightenment.
Taoism: Gain balance in life.
(Taoism wins again.)

Belief in God
Buddhism: No supreme creator God, but believes in numerous non-creator deities.
Taoism: No supreme creator god, but most follow numerous non-creator deities. Especially "The Three Pure Ones."
(I need to understand this better, but I'm not a fan of the whole "worshipping" thing.)

Life after death
Buddhism: Numerous reincarnations. Certain Hells, ultimate Nirvana.
Taoism: The soul survives after death, has the ability to travel through space.
(Don't understand these either. Taoism wins here, but.... travel through space, what?)

Practices
Buddhism: Meditation, contemplation, temple offerings.
Taoism: Visits to shrines, pay homage to Taoist deities.
Angels
Buddhism: Spiritual beings called "Devas."
Taoism: No concept of angels.
(Taoism wins again. But then, I don't know anything about these "Devas.")

Second coming of Jesus
Buddhism: N/A
Taoism: N/A, rather Taoists believe Lao Tzu will return.
(Okay, yeah. Buddhism definitely wins here. I can't believe that some dead guy is returning.)

View of the Buddha
Buddhism: Central figure.
Taoism: Followed by many Taoists.
(So Taoism is... broader?)

View of other religions
Buddhism: No contradiction in following more than one religion.
Taoism: No contradiction in following more than one religion. Most Taoists follow Buddhism.


So Taoism seems preferable, yet more complicated. Plus I don't know if this site was 100% correct, you never know with the internet...

 

The problem with Taoism is that after death, when you travel through space if you get too close to the sun, or stars, you get sucked in and that is very hot----very very hot. And it like takes a lot of effort for a long time to get out of them. And then if you get sucked into a blackhole, which you really can't see---then its all over because no one knows wat happens after that!!!

I'm joking of course----that is the first time I have heard Taoist after-life put in those terms.

Lao Tzu is not the founder of Taoism---he is just the first one we know of to put a whole set of philosophical notions in writing, and much of the philosophical version of Taoism is based on his writing. It was originally an indigenous belief system, and like such beliefs, they do not have a formal institution, and do not even know what to call themselves----so Tao is path. Shinto was the indigenous Japanese belief system and they were the same---Shinto means Path of the Gods. THey both grew out of the spiritual beliefs of the indigenous Ural Altaic tribes that lived in Central Asia.

Buddhism emerged from the Hinduism, which was in fact largely a Indo-European belief system that combined with the indigenous goddess beliefs of India. Does hat help you decide? (That question was a joke again).

I do disagree with Meagain on the survival of the self after death, in the sense that I think that varies with the schools and how deep you get into them. Popular buddhism inherited the karmic chain of life from Hinduism, and many Buddhists believe that your self continues to live on, being reincarnated until you achieve enlightenment, and return to the ecstasy of the void. Bad things in this life could put you in a lower position in the next. Those who achieve enlightenment might even return to tis life to help others as a boddhisatva. Often times Buddhism is combined with, and then replaces an older ancestor worship, particularly in China, Japan, and I believe Korea. The dead come back to visit their families, especially in the fall.

Meagain seems not to care much for the popular Taoism---as it is actually practiced throughout Asia. It is rich n helping gods and spirits that generally help us, but we can anger some. Taoism, like all indigenous spiritualities seeks a balance of the multiple forces of the universe, and these gods (or spirits is a better way for a Westerner to conceive them) help us in the matter. Feng Sui is a good example of this. It is wisdom passed down from the shamans going back to Paleolithic Asia. The philosophical Taoism is more understood here in the West, and it has taken the same teachings but in a more esoteric philosophical fashion. But there is wisdom lost in that, which is not a problem for a Chinese Taoist, because he grows up in that wisdom. Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu did not write for the Post Modern American who will study Taoism for a weekend and think the answers to life are in the Tao Te Ching. The people he wrote for had the cultural context to understand that wisdom, that te Tao Te CHing rose from.

My problem with Eastern religion such as Buddhism and Hinduism is the goal of dissolution of the self into the cosmic consciousness. The Eastern response is that I am just not ready for that to happen n this life. But I feel that we experience life and retain memories for more than just the experience of the absolute self. I would certainly hate it if my fingers decided they wanted to dissolve back into my hand so that they would never be cold or hot, or get burned or poked. I feel tat this Eastern concept grew out of the planter group ethic where the individual is inferior to the group. Taoism grew out of the Individualistic ethic of the hunter-gatherer.

 

I don't mean to discount the things that Meagain says---he is very intelligent and has obviously studied this extensively. My impression has often been that if he is not Buddhist then he is certainly influenced by the philosophy. My differences of opinion do not mean that I am saying he is wrong.

But Eastern Philosophy is not like Christianity where everyone is in 100% agreement and there is only one belief, school, and sect. But wait a minute----Neither Buddhism or Taoism believe n a second coming of Christ? My God!!! That is Satan Worship!! Stay away----they are evil! Eeeevillllll!!!! (yes I am joking again---Christianity has many sects, and you even had Irish Catholics and Protestants killing each other---in the name of Jesus... And I think it is hilarious that a website would even question whether Buddhism or Taoism believe in a second coming of Christ.

I have a few more points to make-----please excuse the misspellings because I have to use my Android tablet, and it is not easy for me without a real keyboard.

On the goals and principals o the two philosophies----I think that really all world religions have the same goals and principals for humankind------just different cultural contexts that create different dogmas and so forth. But in regards to the similarities of these two---Buddhism had a large impact on thee CHinese beliefs and culture, and on Taoism. Taoism had an impact on Buddhist thought too---Zen Buddhism is really a melding of the two philosophies. Meditation is certainly a Buddhist influence on Taoism. And they were both influenced by Confucianism.

Meagain points this out on his points on the afterlife. Taoism is not a true organized religion. Like Shinto, they were simply indigenous spiritualities that were both influenced by Buddhism. They both have little in the way of dogma, and their structure is younger than Buddhism. Taoism has more institutional trappings than Shinto----because China has a long history of warring temples, and a uniquely Chinese struggle with rationalism under following Confucius (not too mention the struggle under Mao). In addition Taoism has been imported into the US, which required more of a institutional aspect. At core, both Taoism and Shinto are still an indigenous spirituality that survived the planter culture and the onslaught of civilization. As such they did not need to deal with the big picture end result. An institution needs to have an end--a final conflict, or a time when everyone finds nirvana, or everlasting peace. An indigenous belief system does not need this----only a day to day balance of the forces of life. It is only when you have an extreme existentialist-cultural crisis--that indigenous people need be worried by such things----such as white people invading the Americas and killing off its inhabitants.

As part of that day to day living in balance, you deal with the question of mortality---so Taoism seeks immortality----even Lao Tzu refers to the Immortals----and the Sages are the immortals that lived in the CHinese Golden Age----and are the ancestors of all Chinese.

In fact another example is Lao Tzu himself---he did not want to write the Tao Te Ching---just simply live in the mountains and the spend the last of his days in harmony with the universe----it was a gatekeeer who would not let him pass unless he wrote down his wisdom---at least according to the tradition. This is why you have so little to read in terms of the Philosophcal Taoism. There is quite a bit regarding popular Taoism ---but they are different from institutional-based scripture. For example the I-Ching is a Taoist text, the writings of CHinese herbal medicine and accupunctre is another example. There are the folktales and myths---which Meagain did not seem to like (though sometimes tanted by Confucianism)----but that is the traditions of indigenous beliefs and tend not to be so jaded or dogma oriented as those of institutional religion. But these myths and folktales are rich in lessons in life and filled with imagery of the subconscious---so they are meant to teach us at a different level. Though the cultural context surrounding them is important too.

 

Like Meagain said, there is plenty of material on Buddhism, and Vedanta. If you would like to have multiple husbands each wiling to answer to your every whim and desire, including sexually, then there are a couple of sects of Jainism you should check out, though I probably glorify it----nothing in India is as utopic as we spoiled Westerners could make it out to be. (Leprosy anyone? How about Amoebic dysentery that will make you sick the rest of your life from time to time, because you can't get rid of it, and you just hope the parasites do not settle in your heart or brain at east until you are too old to care?)

There are many hippies who have nothing more than the Tao Te Ching----and call themselves Taoists---maybe they will study Legge's classic translations of CHuang Tzu----I did that as a teenager. Maybe add in some reading of a little Alan Watts.

You could go further and learn meditation, and find an Americanized temple---that would probably be more of the Philosophical Taoism Meagain speaks of. But if you live near a Chinatown they may have a traditional Taoist temple----filled with the popular Taoism----you don't need to worship per se' just show respect, burn some incense----tell the forces of nature you want to be in balance...

The I-CHing is not really a book you just read----in fact, I even feel I get more out of it, when I can read the Chinese along side it (Though my grammar is fairly rusty). Not to putt words in his mouth---but Meagain might find this part superstitious---I'll let him answer that----but there is a wisdom there that speaks to your subconscious-----it all boils down to symbolism. I would recommend the book, Seeking the Spirit of the Book of Change, by Master Zhogxian Wu. He recommends you read a chapter every day or so, along with an assortment of CHinese teas---one for each day in a form of traditional Chinese tea ceremony---you probably won't find all the teas---an Asian store will have some if you are lucky, a Chinatown might have most brands somewhere----but substitute----its about getting into a frame of mind. But this is one of the best books I have seen in America that gets to the root of Taoism---which is more than just the Philosophical side.

I am not exactly a Taoist, but I am animist, and follow indigenous spirituality. In these ways, one path is just as good as another, because it is all divine. (I am mainly referring to indigenous paths here---an indigenous person would answer that all paths are the same, but that is how missionaries entrap them and take away their own unique path to their own traditions, culture an ancestors.) I would happily go to a Taoist shrine, but the institutional trappings of American Taoism doesn't jive well with me. And my city has a small chinatown wit no formal shrine. I do have a couple of antique ancestral paintings that came into my care. They are actually of the first Emperor and Empress, but poor people did not have pictures of their ancestors, so the temples had paintings of the first Emperor and Empress, because like the sages, they were everyone's ancestor. I try to offer incense and food and wine so they won't get depressed. I often forget-----but I am sure another collector wouldn't even do that. I was told the Chinese shrine was destroyed years ago.

 

Oh yes----if I did not have so much trouble with the institution---organized religion---I would have probably become Buddhist----I think it s a really good religion, and deals with the Post-Modern problems in far better ways than any other organized religion------I am not trying to swing you over to Taoism rather than Buddhism----everyone has their own path----and in that sense any religion or spirituality is as good as another, until you find out what is right for you.

Buddhism has a blatant spiritual side to it---the Far East did not embrace rationalism as much as we did in the West----especially following Ancient Greece. Rationalism did and still does serve a very important purpose in the development of mankind. But it has cost us our spiritual roots. So my advice to anyone is to dig for the spiritual roots that are buried within the religious structure, dogma, and ritual. Spirituality is not religion, and again, if you take out the cultural differences it is fairly universal. If you dig back to its ancient source---it is universal.

 

By not following an ancient religion.
Why limit yourself by rules that are made hundreds or thousands of years ago?

Sure, there is a moral and there are guidelines to 'living a good life', but in essence it's all the same anyway. Let go of the rituals to find something that works for you.

 

But if you go back to the spiritualities--to the point before religion, including the hunter-gatherer belief systems that spawned Taoism, shinto and so forth--there are no rules for living--organized religion yes---but spirituality no. Though in spirituality there are simply rules regarding the ritual----rules that have come from the experiences of dealing with spirit on a one-on-one level that is very serious, a level that the religious tend not to understand because their religion provides a buffer zone protecting them from spirit.

Why is ritual so important? Because it opens the door to the subconscious---our connection to spirit. Or in a materialistic way----it opens the door to the numinous experience that resides in the subconscious.

Modern culture is sick and weakened. Not because of evil, or the decadent ways of man. But because we are alienated from our self. After the Enlightenment, and as we pushed into the Modern Age, we replaced ritual and the irrational with cold calculating rationalistic objectivism. Anything that did not fit rationalism supported by empirical proof was primitive and superstitious. We lost the connection to our subconscious, and therefore struggle with identity issues and are easily consumed by addictions, consumerism, and other escapes to seek temporary happiness. One of the bigger Postmodern responses of this is Modern Age crisis is to find something that works--New Age----a hodgepodge of rituals and beliefs, stripped of their cultural context, prepared to be spoon-fed to the masses, exploiting consumerist behavior in the name of profit. The underlying dynamic is a search for truth---the truth we lost. But that search is filtered through the Enlightenment and the modern age, so it comes back to us as little more than a parody of the original beliefs. A bunch of diverse rituals, stripped of their cultural significance and the archetypal constellation of meaning they fit into are about as useful as a flashlight without batteries.

As a culture, we cannot easily return to the past that had the power of numinous meaning. We have made our bed of science and rationalism, and I believe we can only embrace the irrational numinous again, when science finds the key----the essence of the universe----whatever you want to call it----mind. Only then as a culture can we begin to heal the alienation we experience within our own psyche. But as individuals we can find our own keys to the subconscious--to an understanding of life that provides contentment and resolution of the existential crisis of our own mortality and resolution of self. The rituals handed down from the paleolithic, the remnants of which are buried in the core of every organized religion--does just that. Some of the rituals carry dogmatic trappings implanted by the institution, but others more true to their origins do not. Rationalism is conscious based and will never resolve the split between the conscious and subconscious. For that you need to step into the boundaries of the subconscious, into the mystical. You would be amazed at the power that ancient ritual has to do just that.

 

The Tao te Ching and the Eightfold Path are quite compatible.

One emphasizes living in harmony with the world, the other concerns behaving, thinking and speaking in ways to minimize suffering to one self and those around us.

 

I have no argument there. Spirituality is very compatible with other beliefs, same beliefs, etc...

 

You are right on the I-Ching---it has become a simplified New Age fad---but divination is very popular all over Asia, and the Japanese have a simplified version of it they have used in temples for centuries, and the Chinese too. Things like-----you will find what is lost, wait for your love----etc, etc.

The I-Ching is a book of divination though, after all, Taoist priests were originally shamans. But it is based on archetypical symbolism that has a strange way of being correct---giving one advice that they really need at that point in their life----not anything like, yo are going to get well, you are going to find you lost things---but it has a way of pointing out and helping you understand the situation you are in. The Germanic shamanism gave us the Runes which speak to that same subconscious knowledge.

I thought you would have disagreement on that reincarnation bit. My impression after spending a decade and a half in Asia, mostly Japan is that, like Taoism, there are the popular forms that are widely practiced, and there are those sects-----often the product of the zealots you referred to. But there are many folktales of reincarnation, and the belief in reincarnation played a similar socializing force that it does in India, giving people a good reason to be good to others, and other living things, in this life. Every home has a buddhist altar but the main focus of that is to pray to the ancestors. When someone dies there is a set time to call the priest who prays, and reads sutras for the person, this happens for years after their death. The ancestors return each year in the fall to be with their families. This is the same in China, and most likely came from older traditions that were adopted by Buddhism to gain popularity, but India had its strong beliefs in reincarnation too. (Organized religion does that---Mother Mary was clearly raised to a cult status to appeal to the Goddess followers of pagan Europe---though I feel that the Mother Mary case was probably more manipulatory and less natural than the Buddhist one. Because Buddhism was simply another belief---it didn't say this is the one and only way.)

Then there is the Buddhist devil---Enmao-sama in Japanese, with temples dedicated to him. I have a picture book that shows all the different Buddhist levels of hell one could get sent to----photographs----(just kidding, old temple paintings). But in the case of children, and if you have have learned your lesson well enough----Amida Buddha sends down his staff to allow you to climb up.

Of course there are also the esoteric schools of Buddhism that assimilated the shamans of old. TIbetan Buddhism is rich in Bon shamanism. The Chinese absorbed Taoist shamans and I believe some local tribal shamans---possibly strains of Bon in the South. The Japanese case absorbed old Shinto shamans. There are fascinating similarities, and they all use Tibetan script in ritual---but shamanism has a pretty common view of the world regardless of where it comes from. I cannot think of what the major school of Buddhism this is---in Japanese it is often referred to as Mikkyo. The Yamabushi are the old shamans in Japan----mountain warriors is the translation---they are hermits as much as possible. I have several books on Mikkyo in Japanese, with fascinating stories from both Japan and China of modern day monks, priests and hermits----stories of amazing feats, but they include stories of communicating with the dead and reincarnation. Some sects of Mikkyo are very big and powerful in Japan---but some of those were definitely founded by zealots. Japan has those damn door-to-door missionaries---for example handsome blonde haired mormons--chosen for their looks that would appeal to the Japanese. But there is one sect in particular, Jodo Shinshu----maybe anoter one too, that had their own irritating missionaries.

On a side note, my mom would always get this tightness in her chest. The doctors could never figure out what caused it. When she was in her late 30's she visited Europe for the first time. She was with my grandfather, sightseeing their way back to Germany where he came from. They happened to pass through the mountains in France ad came accross a small town. Suddenly she recognized it and realized that she lived here as a small girl. She said that there was a rock slide and she had been crushed, and that was the tightness in her chest. She wanted to see if that was right so they stopped and asked around in broken French. Finally they found someone who spoke English that verified that indeed in the late 1800's there was a rock slide that killed many of the towns people n a corner of the town. She has never had a problem with that tightness again.

Dr. Stanislav Grof has documented numerous cases of healing people, not only psychologically, but also of health problems, by uncovering traumatic past-life experiences. He is the one I mentioned in the other thread that did extensive work with LSD, and more recently breathing exercises that recreate certain aspects of the LSD experience for therapeutic use.

Anyway, I feel that even though this represents a popular side of Buddhism and may not be accurate to the philosophical truth of deeper levels of Buddhism, it is a defining feature of certain major schools of Buddhism---for example, the Amida schools, and a big part of Buddhism as it s practiced in Asia, so I consider it a feature of Buddhism. I can also understand why you disagree.

 

taoism, like science, is simply honesty. buddhism is honest enough not to blame everything on a god, but still suffers, though to a much lesser degree then western religions, the shared ego of supposed knowledge syndrome.

 

Lao Tzu has a second work translated now - the Hua Hu Ching.

Buddhism is about switching mindsets so that you serve others, and meditating until you see the inability of consciousness to change through any means - thus the emptiness of all things - nothing changes the samadhi.

Taoism is more practical oriented, with most pratice being alchemical. It's rare to find a real teaher. I know of none in the US.

Somewhere in between I really love and follow Sri Vidya in tantricism. Some great teachers now.

In each case, they are trying to sublimate a persons unhappy tendencies through identification with more spacious, free identifications.