Clone / Growth issue

Greetings Budmeisters...

As many of you helped me thru my first cloning you may remember my first set grew plants that were more leggy and without the "bulk" of the mother plant. I've come to figure that it was because the roots couldn't support the growth (too much growth ferts in the beginning), and the extra lights & summer heat had the CO2 blowing out too often.

So... Question:

How large and stable do I need the first clones to get before I can clone again?
Some are almost 3' however they don't have stems and leaves anywhere near as heavy or dense as the mother, which leads me to believe I need to let the plant 'bush out' a bit.

And also, given time and the roots, etc., catching up, will some of the clones eventually grow to be suitable mothers?

TKS all...

 

Trader.

Hopefully I can help straighten out some of your woes.

Nutes/fert won't make your plant stretch. Indeed there are adverts out there showing plants with and without the particular feed they are selling but the plant without feed will be a soil lacking basic nutrients that a plant would normally get outdoors. A plant will only grow to what it's genetics allow and yes some people will get a better looking and yielding plant than others but that's experience for you.

Remember, in an artificial enviroment YOU are playing god with nutrients, light, air and seasons..

You can risk taking them as soon as you like but you'll have a higher failure rate and without doubt will have slower root production. When taking clones I plant even the smallest of tips out of curosity and I've found they take, it just takes longer for them to develop.
If you wanting to put the new clones under HID lighting and in VEG why don't you put them in and take the next gen when they've grown some? Even if your SOG and are going straight into flower you'll have 7-10 days where the clones will still be veging? If either of these don't apply then I don't understand why your eager to take the next GEN from them?

What lights are you using? If your using a backed off HID then you'll need to get a blue/veg lamp which will reduce stretch and induce closer nodes for a real compact bushy plant. If your using FLO then make sure its a veg bulb again and get it closer. Within 2cm is ideal and don't forget to spray them with a mist 4 times a day until roots are showing.

All clones carrytheir mothers genetics and as you may know this is the reason for cloning. As well as becoming females themselves they'll also carry the genetics too. Things can alter this though, lighting, nutes, air and enviroment. Back to where we started and playing god!

To sum it up it's an enviroment issue. Some people get into the plants skin and understand the fundementals of playing god, some want the minimum knowledge to get a cheap smoke. It's the in-between bit that throws up many 'valid' questions and without being rude it sounds your somewhere there. I wouldn't be embaressed by it either as it's the "help my plants dying" threads that tickle me, epecially when you find the person can't tell if it's a female or male and they have a 6 footer in there home!!

Ask the questions Trader and get the knowledge. I still question things today so grow on and good luck.....................
Goldie.

Half of my current grow. Pic taken 19th July 05.

http://hipforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21633&stc=1

 

chunk chunk chunk a roonie!
Nice nugs goldie.. great advice as well, I love how you taKE YOUR TIME TO COACH THE KIDS.
WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO HIPFORUMS.
We really enjoy your expertise and advice, in a gentle manner.
Glad you could join us here.
tie

 

Darn...those ARE awesome buds Avatar! It looks like you go for strains that produce more of a central bud rather than the spread-out-branching-strains.

Thanks very much for the advice and help. Yes, it's definitely been a fast learning curve.
I'm still figuring out many things for sure.

As to a couple of your questions, I have a dual ballast in the veg room, 400mh & 600hps on a light mover...(24hrs a day by the way). I keep the smaller plants under the MH. The mounting is such that the lights move in the same 'plane' as the mover, (not side by side, but in a straight line). Since they hang independent of each other I can lower the MH and raise the HPS to suit the height.

The clones did start under fluorescents...grow bulbs...and VERY close to them.

I'm not going for SOG, but I was concerned that the first "mama" was such a huge plant and the clones...although growing fine....are not anywhere near as "leaf-ladden" and strong branched as their mom.

I still am of the thought that the clones taken were not rooted well enough. They took off in height...but lacked bulk, strength, etc., and I'm curious to see what buds they'll try and put on.
I've got about a quarter of them in the flower room...1000hps...and the rest I'm still trying to "bulk up" in the veg room.

Granted the original mom got plenty of attention, light, CO2, and space. I'm learning that I probably produced too many clones...for the space...and now am having to deal with summer heat, blowing CO2 out, and reduced light to each plant. Damn shame I don't have some trolley that moves the plants out under the hot sun during the day!

As to my question/thoughts on taking the next set of clones...I was moderately panicking that I was somehow "losing" the original vigor of the mama...and wondered what crisis I needed to avert.
If you (and fellow experienced growers) say that the same genetics will continue regardless of my growing "faux pas"...then I'll just continue to let the bulky clones grow and grow. Eventually they should take on the same characteristics.

By the way Avatar...what strain is that in your pics...and do you like the "end results"?

I'll try and get some pics which'll help explain my dilemma.

Thanks again...appreciate it.

 

Thanks tiedye. I promise to try and behave myself!

Trader, if only eh! I can see it now, a cottage in the country with a free standing garage which you could wheel the plants in and out of. Or, how about an automated bed that they come out on for 12 hours each day........ don't get me thinking, the trolley is an easier idea than getting the cottage!



It sounds like you have the room sorted out. Light movers and C02 sounds a fair set-up but what ventilation do you have there?



I'll wait until you get some more pics up before taking it any further but to add the clone situation I too have some short thin ones right now. The ones that have gone into the grow area were 8 inches high due to being in a heated propagator/dome, the ones left out and in the greenhouse are around 2-4 inches high but they are going to be bushy little buggers if I use them. See picture attached.

Humidity plays a lot towards the root system as the plant will take in moisture through the leaves which in turn gives the roots a higher percentage of food, fluid and independence to develop. When I started out in gardening I imagined the leaf matter supported the roots. It is to an extent with photosynthesis & producing food but a much higher percentage of responsibility for the plants health & growth lies in the root system.

I've seen experiments with rooting clones in the same medium but under different light schedules, 24 & 16/6. There was only a marginal increase in root development with the 18/6 which was put down to the dark period giving the roots a rest by not having to manage the leaf matters hectic 24 work pattern whilst managing it's own growth.



Talking about roots, do you have a heat mat or heated dome tray under the clone pots?



As for the strain in the picture, they're B52s. A very very good high and although looking more like an indica they are in fact more sativa. I prefer sativa myself as I find it a lot more social. If I get an unexpected visitor I don't worry with sativas, in fact the nearest I get to looking suspicious is trying not to laugh whilst the person's midway through a sentence. Unlike Indicas, which make me wanna crash out without the will to even pick up a remote control let alone answer the door!



I've just taken this picture to show you the outdoor clones. No heat pad or artificial set up, just nature. If they were indoors they'd be over 4ft now being as they're 6 weeks old! I'm not sure what will happen with these. Probably I'll put them out wild as I haven't the need for them. I believe they sell for £25/$40 a piece but I strictly stay away from any commercial aspect of growing MJ and that includes selling off unwanted clones. There may be over £600/$1000 o0f clones without a home but once you sell anything from your grow you'll be hooked. Easy cash breeds greed, and greed gets you arrested. Period. I also get a lot of satisfaction knowing I'm doing it for me and a few selected lifelong friends who no longer need to run the gauntlet with street traders. How better could it be than having your own hobby making your close friends as happy and appreciative as can be?



Right, I need to stop talking and get on with adding this picture. As you can see it's no longer than a smoke paper yet it has 8 nodes!!! Now that’s going to be one bushy plant even if it's slow right now. I reckon, as it's now 6 weeks old, if I put that under my lamps it'd reach 1ft in 7 days and close to 3ft in 14. I'd switch it to 12/12 after 11 days myself but as you know Trader, some plans change along the way!


http://hipforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21640&stc=1

 

Good pic. Wish I had a camera that could zoom in with good details.

Anyway, I'l try and get a pic so as to explain my dilemma and "puzzlement".

The initial seed...Northern Light...grew roots like a bugger. The darn plant ended up over 6' tall and around the same in width. It spent just over 2 months in veg.
Fortunately, I guess, that was my first grow effort and the plant got tons of the light, all the CO2, and made a root ball that was so dense in the 3+ gallon container I couldn't even get my finger into it to test for moisture. The plant could handle a gallon of water/ferts a day when growing. Produced just under a pound...and damn if I knew what I was doing...ha.

(For "new" growers, I might add that I bought over 60 seeds...and only succeeded with under ten. I hadn't understood "heated environment" yet...and lost most seeds to cold, dampness)

Anyway, I took the clones right before putting it into flower. Took around 40. They went into a high-hat dome, heated matt, and cloning solution for food. Spent their time under an advanced fluorescent set-up...(4 bulbs, mixed outputs)...and grew roots fairly quickly. 24 hour lights on...just like the mother.
And NOW comes the beginning of where I think the problems began:

Seeing the roots in the 2" square rockwool...some good, some just showing...I transplanted them into 4" square nursery pots. Grow medium was the same (excellent) as "mama". But when they outgrew the height under the light...about a foot...they went into the veg room and were about 3' below the 400MH.

And so it went. The plants grew taller...but definitely lacked the broad leaves, the thicker stems, etc., of the mother, and now are around 3' tall or so.

So I'm left with plants that have the height and nodes...but nowhere near the stoutness/thickness/bushyness of their mama. To be honest, it looks like I'll have a harvest in the "miniature".

Tomorrow I'll try a pic. Have to drag the thing out into regular light as the HO lights put out weird camera color.

Definitely appreciate your insights and efforts. Kudos to you!

TKS

 

Trader how big is the room? Ever thought of laying it down and letting the side colas produce? Kinda SCROG but DIY? I have some that are stretching outside but I'll pot them into 10 litre pots laying the new plant around 15 degrees in the new soil. Mind you, this is experimental for me. I don't need the extra weed as my current grow will last me 18 months, but these are my own cross and I want to see how they develop. When I get started I'll pass you a link to my GJ.


I can't get around this stretch your getting. How old is the MH & HPS? If you know they have Hrs left that can be ruled out. You also said the MH is on through flower? If thats so you should have real bushy squat things?

Interesting but the pictuire may bring something to light that's not obvious to us both in text and sight.

If you do get a camera forget zoom, go for 'macro'. Zoom is for tourists, macro's for purists!!

Grow on Trader.

Goldie.

 

Rooms are 8'wide, almost 8' tall. Veg room is about 9' long, Flower is about 11' long or so.
Lights seem to be fine.

Pics are problematic because of the crowding and reflective material screwing with the focus and detail. Here's some to view, but not great. Notice the BIG leaf plants are from seeds, the skinny leaves, are from clones.

The budded plants are a month older and in flower much longer, but notice the size of their leaves. Then, looking at the clones, they're shorter (younger) but their leaves are wispy and the trunks, branches are MUCH lighter in dimension.

Again, (you may have already read this from me), but I personally think it' because the clones were taken from a VERY aggressive, HUGE, Northern Light mom at about 9 weeks, they rooted very quickly (but not so densely), and "took off" in height without putting on the dense, bushy effect the mom had because they had GROW food, but not so much ROOT food.
Also, as summer got hotter, the CO2 was not holding 1500ppm at all. By the time it cleared 1000ppm the vents would come on.
Also, the clones saw only part of the light the mom got. Crowding had an effect I'm sure.
The lightmover moves the MH & HPS back and forth, but all things weren't equal to the mom.

I've just purchased two A/C Value Brite hoods...and am in the process of figuring out the fan needs to blow/suck the air thru. When I have that figured out I'm adding another 1000hps in the flower room, but I dare not try until I get the temps in order.

My concern now will be, "Will clones eventually taken from these F1 clones have the same vigor, growth, etc. that the mother had if I can get the 'environment' back in order?

Thanks for the help.

Now I've got to upload the pics. They're coming...!!

 

Hope this works...

 

Top photo is a successful "amsterdam/bubblegum" at 5 weeks flower.
2nd pic is flower room. Thick leaf plant is from seed...thin ones are from clones and have only been there for a week.
3rd pic is from "bent over" Chemo X Big Bud.
4th pic is veg room. Note the thin, wispy leaves and lightweight stems even though they're fairly tall.

In general, Avatar, do you see the difference in bulk, leaf size, stem size, etc? And you can juuuuuuuuuuuuuuusst make out the lower lip of the MH light in the veg room pic. I'd say that's still fairly close, right?

Thanks all...

 

If you taken the clones then you know they come from the mother you speak of. If so, they should show every trait the mother has depending on enviroment, which you rightly picked up on. Like you seem to say, adjust the room and go for it again.

That first pic shows some heat stress from the leaf matter. You no doubt have a desk or pedalstal fan in there but is it pointing at the plant tps? Also was it directed on the plants and at a low speed during there first days in the room? You can also raise the fan speed and aim it above the plant tops at an early stage, but I'm wondering how you did it. Theres no concrete way of doing this but I'm curious as to how you operated the fan.

The difference in leaf size is so obvious. It almost looks like Indicas sat next to pure sativas. Very strange. Did the seeded plants spend any time at all outdoors?

The root food and veg food wouldn't make any significant difference IMHO. Probably a subtle difference but it wouldn't warrant what your seeing now. Otherwise, we'd all be able to manipulate the plants to extremes but as you know manipulation and MJ is a subtle thing.

The lights look ok to me too. To make a solid remark without seeing it would be foolish but looking at what you have it seems your pretty well into the game. It's those crisp leaves that could warrant some attention. As for the leaf difference & what about the fan, plant locations in and outdoors.

Goldie.

 

The fans are mounted upside down (on the ceiling) and oscillate constantly. 2 per each room. One other is a case fan (ceiling hung also) that comes on at intervals and blows the general hot air around the top.

Nothing spent any time outside. Germination of the clones was under high-hat dome, heat matt, rockwool cubes, solution, etc., and under 4 bulb fluorescents (2 ea. 3500/6000).

You saw the veg room...ha...when these get going in flower I'm wondering how much space I'll have.

Will the general size, thickness, etc., of the clone plants dictate the size and quantity of the buds they produce? "mama" was a beast...6'6" tall by 5'/6' wide, and produced almost a pound on her own.

TKS.

 

A note on clones and virlility...
It is best to hit your mom with batguano or some good fert- complete fert- and cut clones during a growth spurt. This is your only insurance for virility to my knowledge.
thetiedyeguy

 

A few words on cloning:
People call the plant you take a cutting (clone) from a 'mother'.
But it's not.
A more accurate term for the source plant would be 'donor' rather than mother.
Because a clone is still the source plant; it has the exact same genetics because it IS the same plant.
Any difference comes from what happens to the clones AFTER they leave the mother.

If I may critique your grow room:
It looks too crowded. It seems that there is a lot of shading going on.
Also, imo you're letting the plants get too tall before switching to 12/12. Indoors, every inch further away from the light means less lumens. With tall plants the lower buds are less potent than the top buds. Keeping the plants shorter may mean less yield total buds from a single grow, but keeping them short means the buds at the bottom of the plant are lots better than the bottom buds from a tall plant, and it means you can get a new crop going sooner.
I've done it both ways. My first indoor grow (not counting the 'tron), I let the plants get 5' tall before switching to 12/12. I was disappointed in the lower buds.
After 2 grows with tall plants, a friend clued me in. Unlike outdoors, keep indoor plants short.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, just relating things I've found out.

 

No, please....ALL comments welcome! And (Ranger) I agree with your assessment. Critique anytime!

When I tried my first cloning, I was in "overkill" thinking 'cuz I most definitely did not want to "lose" my mother plant genetics. I lost 25% due to various things, mostly from the plants growing TOO fast too soon and not having enough roots to support transpiration (even with cut leaves).

So I DID end up with more plants than the rooms can comfortably support.

Also, along with your thoughts, the original mom had lived in the flower room almost by herself...and got TONS of light from the mover overhead. In my ignorance and mild panic, I kept letting the plants get taller hoping they'd start to show traits of mom, ie; large trunk, strong branches, numerous bud sites.

So now I have rather weak-limbed clones putting on small (so far), limited bud sites, and their stems are going to need support down the line. Most are already around 3'.

Steep learning curve here. I need guidance...ha ha.

My Amsterdam/Bubblegum & ChemoX BigBud are coming on line. Another month should be strong!

Question: Has anyone had indoor plants that they moved outdoors in the last several weeks of flower? We have hot sun here...but 50's at night...(vs the flower room staying in the mid 60's during light's off).

Would love to be able to move the plants out into the sun...but don't want to lose anything in the process.

All comments apprreciated.

TKS

 

And ps to above...the plants would be going out in their containers...not being planted.

 

trader...as long as you "harden" them off, to the new environment, they should do fine. One other thing to watch for, depending on plant size/pot size, they may be prone to blowing over.

 

The pots are plenty big...(cut down 5 gallons)....but what exactly is necessary for "hardening off"? Does this mean I have to bring them in at night...or just watch the sun's
strength.

And Grouchy, I see you're in the Rockies also...at my altitude...so are our nights too cool for the plants around now?

Thanks.

 

Mainly suns intensity to watch for, but hot dry winds can factor too. I've used mottled sun, under a shade tree, to a fair degree of success.


And no. Nite temps are running in the 60's, occasionally a mid-upper 50. I'm @ around 35N

 

Stick them out in sunshine in the morning until they look a bit pekid- stick them back in.
Do it for a couple days and keep a close eye on it.This is also a way to 'harden".
Grouches way is safer though ,A shady spot is always best.