Dear Liberals/Libertarians herein..

I've opened this topic, to be a place of civilized discussion and debate between any Liberals and Libertarians, who would like to partake. I feel as though this is important because we are two wings of the political spectrum that is growing vastly in America.

I've been hearing a lot about the "gap" in American politics. The Left has gone "far left" and the right has gone "Far Right" as Balbus stated. In a way though, I feel like the far right and the far left can agree that somethings wrong.

Right-wing Libertarians like myself, believe that the problem is the size and scope of the federal government. That it's none of the government's business what one decides to eat, drink or, smoke. The government should let people make their own choices with their bodies, including marrying whom you please. But essentially that the problem is government, and less government is more freedom.

Liberals, on the other hand, I'm going to quote from elsewhere because many people here "Don't think I know what it means"

Okay, so a few points in here. Essentially you guys believe in a bigger government which is obligated to pay for those who don't work, or those who are uninsured.

Which, believe me, with a government as corrupt as ours, I understand why people want something back from them. However, the government doesn't really "own" ANYTHING! Everything the government has it needs to steal from us. So we really are the government in the grand scheme of things, although, currently we don't control our own government, nor the laws they pass.

So, with all this said; I'm intrigued as to why Liberals believe that more money being pumped into a broken system is the right answer. Our tax money is WASTED on bailouts, war and, plastic surgery for school teachers. This is beyond anything that more of our own money will fix.

I purpose.. ready?? My type of limited government on the Federal scale, one that leaves people alone, doesn't pry into our business and, asks only for the Fair Tax. But Liberal and communist (Civilian) governments on a local scale. In other words, one could start a commune with 8 acres and say 20 people. In a truly free society, you could grow hemp, marijuana, opium or whatever the hell you like!!!

BUT, in my society, since it is capitalist. You and your commune could collectively start a business with your product, and make a lot of money to go back to your own betterment on a local level. (Marijuana is already Americas number 1 cash crop!!) That is to say, you wont being paying for school teachers in upstate NY, to get plastic surgery. You'd be able to KEEP your own money and invest in something, give it to charities or, spend it locally.

This to me is better in the future than just attacking those with money. Saying they should pay more since they make more, and in the meantime we're making businesses leave due to over taxation and regulations that are made to help a select few businesses, and hurt their competitors.

I don't wish to argue with anyone.I just wish to open a dialogue, since we are all the future of this country and its political system. I don't believe the problem is "capitalism" as OWS claims, but rather Crony Capitalism entwined with the Federal Government and America's political process.

Any thoughts?

 

I tend to agree with most of what you've said, but I can't claim to be well informed about the issues so I'm certainly open to different ideas.

My general feeling is that the government doesn't seem to have my best interest in mind, and the less I have to deal with government agencies the better.

 

I quit reading at your implication that 'Balbus' is an authority on anything.

 

Up to this point, I'm with you 100%. :cheers2:

For me, the big problem with eliminating welfare benefits is that you can't dump adults out on the street without dumping their children on the street. Kids don't get to pick their parents, and they've done nothing wrong. They just woke up one morning, and they were here. You and I didn't pick our parents. If they had been total losers, we would have been screwed.

The health insurance thing is less idealistic and more pragmatic. When people can't afford to go to the doctor, they end up getting no medical care until they end up in the emergency room by necessity, and the unpaid bill is HUGE. Prevention is cheaper. Never mind the quality of life benefits to the recipients. They just got lucky.

I hope we never become the kind of country where if they find you stretched out on the sidewalk, they check your pockets for an insurance card before calling 911. That just isn't human. You wouldn't want your dog treated like that.

Stealing means breaking the law, and the government writes the laws. It can't break itself.

Bailouts for companies were done because the alternatives seemed worse. Can you imagine all of the American auto industry gone, and all of those people unemployed? None of them, or their employers, would be paying income taxes. That would be a HUGE financial loss to the federal government. The banks had to survive because we can't live without banks.

War? I'm with you there, buddy. We don't need to be fighting anybody right now.

School teachers? I think their healthcare benefit costs are trivial, in the grand scheme of things. I don't care if they get plastic surgery or not.

Actually, some of my teachers needed it. Badly.
:leaving:

 

:cheers2: To us, actually agreeing for once lol.

While I agree with your premise, I don't think eliminating food stamps would be quite so drastic. Firstly, I'm all about the protection of children. I'd like to see CPS privatized and perhaps taken over by charities, churches and people who generally like kids. A lot of CPS employees really don't give a shit. Back on foodstamps though; Me and my ex girlfriend moved in together. Neither of us were really working except a few bucks here and there. Although we weren't on foodstamps, we were still able to survive by donations from churches and charities. But, I don't call for abruptly ending foodstamps either. But over time, I would. Because I know how it really is to be homeless and hungry, and in reality people can get help if they want it. Churches in NYC still offer housing and food to those in need. We have a very giving and caring country here.

The healthcare reform written by Romney and nationalized by Obama, calls for what you just said. Yeah, you get government insurance, but you can't go to the emergency room without it. Also, what about people like me who have insurance for a few more years and don't want or need government mandated insurance?? Why can't I opt out if I want to, and let people who need it, buy it?? That's why taxes are stealing, they are taking money out of my paycheck, without my consent, to spend it in my name, on things I don't want or need, including war.

I find it interesting how you are putting these select few above the law. Is anyone above the law?? Could a cop or congressman park in a no parking, kill someone or break into your home?? Are they not governed themselves? Is no body watching the watchmen?

That may have been the concern but it isn't really accurate. Take K-Mart as an example; Walmart offered better prices and hence K-Mart had to close stores, liquidate assets and employees. It's pretty natural in capitalism for companies to go broke due to malinvestments and competition. But it's hardly the governments place to pick winners and losers. If an industry fails, another industry takes it's place.

Another point i'd like to bring up, is that most of Banks money isn't even real. They buy money from the federal reserve at 1/2 price, and act like they have twice as much money as they really do! In all honesty, the banks SHOULD'VE failed!! And all those elite banksters should go bankrupt for every war the got us into. The banks are a big part of the military industrial complex that plagues this nation.

I'm just making a point against wasteful spending of tax money. I'm not opposed to teachers getting plastic surgery, but it should come out of their pocket!!!

 

Cops do this all the time... You know that right? oliceman:

 

I'll contribute some. I agree that government is too big and should be cut to a lean,efficient machine from what it is now. My problem with what has gone on for a while, is the offshoring of factories/jobs. Of course there will always be lazy people that wouldn't work under ANY conditions and would and DO suck off the system. But I think if there were plentiful jobs right here in the US,that the majority of folks would like to have one. I have always enjoyed getting a nice chunk of change for working the trade that I work and I would hope that most would.

I agree about the drugs and free will and my idea has been for years to open one of the closed military bases to HARD CORE DRUG USERS-provide them with the drugs concommitantly with help to beat them. MJ and Lsd should be available for whomever wants them(21). Probably do this country some good to see many more dosed. (there's certainly a BUNCH that I'd like to see change their attitudes.)

The socialist part of my heart says medicine and education socialized would do wonders for this country.

And maybe to get some kind of committee to survey ALL of the government programs extant and CUT-CUT-CUT out the excess fat. Could be some disagreement there.

That's what comes to mind now.

 

I think liberals and libertarians (actual libertarians, not those tea party fucks) need to get together and come up with a list of things they actually agree on (marijuana legalization, reduced american military presence around the world, marriage equality, a woman's right to choose what she does with her body) and start there. maybe after a few things get changed that you all agree on, it will be easier to sit down at a table and have rational discussions about the right way to move your country forward. although this can really only happen if both sides realize that they probably aren't going to get everything the way they want it, and have to be willing to compromise and work together.

 

close down 50% of your military bases worldwide and get out of these wars, and i think you'll be able to afford education and healthcare with money to spare to pay down the deficit.

 

I think you're exactly right!! I would hate to compromise freedom, and although all government compromises freedom, some degree of government is needed for safety.

If we could repeal the patriot act, the NDAA, The faa reauthorization Act, the espionage act, the federal reserve act, Bradley Manning released immediately and, prisons replaced with rehabilitation for non-violent drug users, I (may) actually be proud of my government again.

 

(to post 9)I agree with that. Why in hell do we still have troops in Japan,Germany and all the other places that we have them. And stop giving money to OTHER countries for any reason other than humanitarian aid. And once and for all--eliminate the vast ghettoes by somehow getting the inhabitants some kind of work. They've been ignored forever ,it seems,until they start burning.

 

I know Stp and I "agree to disagree" on many things and we do agree on quite a few others. My feeling is the stupid Gooberment we have now is not the actual problem... It is the result of a much larger problem.


People, and the corporations, governments and whatever else they create can not regulate themselves, so it always comes down to "Somebody needs to do something about _________". (fill in the blank) That somebody always ends up being the stupid government. When the human race can grow a fuckin' pair and every one of us have some humanity, humility, and morality... Then we can actually get somewhere on this rock. Until then we will continue to have this problem. This is why small government or no government will ever work. At least not in my lifetime.

 

I know many of the bases around the world are rented from the host nation, for instance; when I was stationed at RAF Lakenheath in the 1980's, we were renting the base for $250 million a year. Then there is the cost of maintaining housing in those bases, and other costs. The cost to operate RAF Lakenheath for one year was almost $600 million a year (1980 dollars) excluding rent. This is just one base, some are more some less, you get the picture.

I agree, we do not need the huge amount of overseas bases, also the US military does not need to be the policeman to the world.

 

I didn't so much vote FOR Obama as I voted against Romney and the rightwing extremist, christian conservative fucks pushing their view of morality, social values and economic slashing of programs helping the less fortunate

 

:cheers2: I rarely disagree with any Libertarian about personal freedom issues.

They don't care where your insurance comes from, as long as you have some. They just don't want people waiting until they get sick to sign up. That drives costs through the roof.

Take a look at a dollar bill. What does it say on there? United States of America. Your name is not printed on it. They can do whatever they want.

Not always. In the town where I finished high school, all the industry is gone, and nothing took its place. There is no decent way to earn a living there.

Government has let a lot of people down by allowing their jobs to go offshore to countries where workers are mistreated, and the import duties are not sufficient to balance things out and create a level playing field.

That would have punished all the people who needed to use those banks. I'd rather see some unethical bankers go to jail.

What would our budget look like now if we had never gone into Iraq?

 

25

OK I’m game

First I’d point out that there are many types of liberals’ and ‘libertarians’ there are left libertarians and right libertarians and many shades in between and as pointed out although many Americans think ‘liberal’ is left wing most left wingers think liberals are to the right of them.

Try reading - http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=7236723&postcount=63

Now you say -

I've been hearing a lot about the "gap" in American politics. The Left has gone "far left" and the right has gone "Far Right" as Balbus stated. In a way though, I feel like the far right and the far left can agree that something’s wrong.


And I’d reply – there is no ‘left’ in American politics, there is a far right that sees the next party to the left of it as being ‘left’ but that is not the same as it being actually left wing.

Do you understand?

It means you premise from the start is going to be slanted.

 

25

Another problem as I’ve pointed out is that Right-wing Libertarians like you don’t seem interested in ‘good governance’ and instead go on about ‘small government’ again it means you premise from the start is going to be slanted.

Is that true? The thing is that a absolutist dictatorship could be a ‘small government’.

One of my arguments against right wing libertarians is that they often go on about ‘freedom’ but when looked at it seems to mean the freedom of a few to exploit people and the environment to the detriment of the many.

I want good governance I don’t care if it comes from a supposedly ‘big’ or ‘small’ government.

Are you saying they wouldn’t work? And I’d agree with Karen having a healthcare system like our NHS actually works out cheaper than the US system.

 

25

The first sentence is fine as a slogan but like all slogans is way too simplistic. I want the government to make sure that what I eat and drink is safe, and a lot of decisions are make out of necessity or addiction. I want the government to make sure that if some on ‘decides’ to buy a cheap piece of meat because that is only what they can afford then that meat is fit to eat (before governments regulated such things that was often not the case). Also I want the government to be there to help people that may have got addicted to something they now wish to escape, because it is not only good for them but the wider society. I also want government to keep harmful or addictive substances away from children.

I’m all for the decimalisation of drugs because they can then become regulated (and taxed). If someone wants to swallow ecstasy fine but I’d prefer that they knew it was actually ecstasy.

Try reading - Rightwing libertarians and drugs - the first paragraph of which is

Thing is that right wing libertarians want to legalise all drugs and I don’t know of any left wingers who wanted to legalize drugs, like they do because theirs is a particularly right wing, free market approach to the issue.
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=368871&f=36

Again the question of gay marriage is not a rightwing – leftwing issue it is a bigotry issue in Europe we have openly gay right wing politicians. A British member of the right wing Conservative party married his partner at a ceremony attended by many leading Conservatives.

To raise your hand to tell people you are not a bigot is fine but should you need to shouldn't you just not be a bigot?

 

25

As to your proposal – it is way to simplistic for one thing and it doesn’t deal with the major problem I see in the US political system which is the power and influence of wealth.

As I (and many others) have pointed out many times the ideas put forward by right wing libertarians would vastly increase that power.

As to “But Liberal and communist (Civilian) governments on a local scale” with communes based on agriculture, that is just plain silly. The US stopped being a agriculturally based society a long time ago today only 2% of the labour force of the US is agriculturally based. And who pays for the land, and where is this land coming from and on and on this just raises more questions than answers.

(edit) And you really need to explain what you think a “Liberal and communist (Civilian) government” would be like and function?

 

Until recently, you've been on my ignore list, so I couldn't see the two most recent neg rep comments you left for me:

The last one was just two days ago.

Civilized discussion? You're going back on my ignore list.