Ego loss is not ego loss.

When you experience ego loss, it is exactly that - an experience. This mean there must be knowledge of what is going on, in order to interpret it. Interpretation means there must be an observer watching - so the consciousness is split. When the ego disappears in the subject, there is no division. The ego is shattered, and this must be permanent since the ego cannot reform when there is nothing to reform it. I believe drug induced ego loss is not truly loss of the ego in the tripper, but a visualisation of that process. That is why it is not permanent.

 

Isn't this the whole "I think therefor I am" discussion. Ego may just be thoughts of you and your interpretation of reality. When something shakes that whole foundation (this could very well be some kind of psychedelic drug), it's questions the aspect and could possibly be called an ego loss.

 

i agree

but nothing is permanent. so why not just say the ego comes back, but it comes back a bit differently, changing with the experience of losing oneself and becomes something new, a refreshed version of the ego.

why is there nothing to reform it? how do you know this? not all energy can be seen? I get where you are coming from, but having had ego loss and both from psychedelics and also from other health issues, I assure you there can be temporary detachment from the self, even though the self is reformed in the end...

i hope this makes sense, i'm still half awake

 

Yeah it makes sense. I say there is nothing to reform it because logically, when the self goes, there is nothing there - no entity - to rebuild it. If you know that you are detached from the self, then there is a "you" watching that, and you have not experienced ego loss. I do not think that ego loss would be an experience at all, given that nothing can possibly experience it.

 

But you still need to have an ego to loose it. And I also think people are - almost always - talking about a partial ego loss. A total ego loss would be the same as none existing. I think you're taking the whole "ego loss" aspect way to literally.

 

I do agree that ego loss is temporary but I think when describing this phenomena, there is a distinction made between ego and self awareness.

When one experiences ego loss that doesn't necessarily mean they lose self awareness as well.

 

I see what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense, but perhaps the ego (due to karma, or whatever your philosophies maybe) even when detached must find its way back to the body, because it is something we need in this human life (unless of course someone is already enlightened) in order to overcome wrong view, wrong speech...in order to to start becoming mindful in every minute or second of our life.


My first episode of ego loss took place as I broke through on DMT. It was insane, and I was clearly separated from my ego, until I was able to vocalize a few words out loud- at which point I realized that I had been separated from my ego. I think the realization of ego separation is more like a half-way point as opposed to it (ego loss) never happening.

This really confuses me, I'd like to hear more because right now I'm finding it very difficult to comprehend self-awareness while detached from the ego.


My most prominent ego loss experience happened without the help of any psychedelics and was only due to some crazy vertigo that temporarily took over my body:
I was in my bathroom at my parent's house, standing up and drying my hair. I was forced to take a break due to some slight dizziness, that eventually turned into a pretty violent vertigo that had my upper torso spinning (or so it felt), and eventually my entire body gave way and i fell against the counter and the side of my body hit the wall next to me. My bathroom has dimming lights and as my body hit the wall I turned off the lights. I realized the lights went out, but within seconds of that I became nothing. It was a very bizarre situation and one that I still don't get but I, as a person with an ego, ceased to exist. Eventually (I) saw a faint orange light glowing and started to panic. It was pitch black aside from this tiny light and I was still spinning, or so it felt, from the vertigo. At this point thoughts were flying through my mind at 100 m/p/h. I was perceiving, but I was not me. I knew I existed, but that was all. I didn't know to what extent I existed, human, animal, boy, girl...whatever. I was TERRIFIED. (My) heart started to pound rapidly and I began to feel the pounding in my body as I slowly started to transform back into myself. I think feeling my heartbeat was the beginning of the end of the ego loss, as I became aware of my own body. I was still spinning and I hadn't quite figured out what the orange light was, but gradually the spinning stopped and I came to understand (to some degree) what had just happened.

Perhaps this isn't ego loss, but I was aware, though not necessarily self-aware.


I like this discussion

 

That story you told sounds to me more what ego loss would be like, if it existed. It would be a terrifying process, being unable to recognise what you were, and having no reference point for anything.

 

"Ego" need not be present nor intact in order to experience something.
A newborn infant is essentially egoless in the most commonly accepted sense of the term. The infant has not yet constructed a personality or ego. The "ego" spoken of in relation to psychedelics and "ego-death" experienced by some is the construct of our life experiences that dictate to us the "who" "what" "why" and "where" of our journey throughout this adventure called life. But such a construct is not a necessary component of awareness, rather the opposite.

As the ego develops and becomes more "solidified" in the individual, awareness takes a negative hit in a sense. Our perceptions and awareness is now filtered, sorted, catagorized, and reacted upon based on the "rules" that have been put into place during the development and construction of the ego.

During the ego-loss or death ( I prefer ego-dissolution) that can occur with psychedelics those rules and the accompanying construct we refer to as "ego" is no longer the central scrutinizer (Zappa :2thumbsup for our experience, but rather becomes yet another "thing" experienced and observed.

As all the trappings and labels we have adopted throughout life dissolve and are recognized for exactly what they are, facades we carry around, in essence our psychological selves "die". We are left as a conscious being simply "experiencing" or just "being" with no labels, rules or other claptrap to limit or interpret the experience.
It just is and we just are. No need for adjectives or pronouns at that point.

At least that's my take on it.

Oh and yeah, true psychedelic induced "ego loss" is scary as all fucking hell going into it, but complete nirvana coming out the other side. It truly feels as if you are no longer going to exist. But like Leary always said, "trust your nervous system", you will return as the circuitry gets back to "normal".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a3NcwfOBzQ

 

I too believe it is a glimpse into ego loss or minimization. I believe that we can change our ego. Very difficult and takes much work. I think there is good / bad ego. Not sure if we can totally let go of our ego.

Psychedelics helped me like nothing else in seeing my ego and all its glory. That was the beginning of change for me. I had a great understanding of who I was, what I was capable of and where I wanted my life to go. LSD was like shining a light on ego. I would not have known what to change had I not seen it thru psychedelic glasses.
DMT sounds great. Good topic!

 

Then what is the experiencing structure? You talk as if there is something within us apart from the ego (or the "self") that experiences it when it is "no longer the central scrutinizer".

This kinda conflicts with what you said before - existence as bare consciousness would mean you are operating like a computer. This means no experience at all. An "experience" of ego loss is no ego loss.

 

That is self awareness though. You can reread your story and see how many times you make personal references, this experience and the perceptions that took place happened in your awareness, I certainly did not have this particular experience. But the way you describe it, this experience was not happening to Goodvibes83, the Hipforums stoner, who loves the Grateful Dead and all the other labels and qualities that compose your ego, which you may think more of as a "self identity."

 

As I thought, you are defining ego as the central "self" or consciousness, I do not.

The ego is a constructed and learned entity built of the definitions of what we consider "I", but it is not that "I" itself.

Ego is all the "I am's"
I am a student
I am an employee
I am a son
I am a father
I am a son of a bitch
etc, etc.
Those are all labels we have adopted to define "who" we are but they are not the "I" in and of themselves.

Ego-death takes one to a position of simply "I am".

The difference in our viewpoints is one of how we define the term "ego".

 

I don't really believe in the ego at all. Freud was a bit of a Fraud. So I use self and ego as referring the same thing - the sum of all past experiences condensed as an entity separate from everything else in the universe.

For me the "I" is that which you talk about as the ego, no more. The "I" of "I am" is the entity (illusionary) that has been a student, a son, a lawyer, a parent, etc. I do not see how there can be an "I" stripped of all its content. The "I" is the content.

 

Freud's concept of ego is completely different than the concept of ego and ego loss you started this thread about lol, the ego loss from a drug induced state. There is nothing I can think of inherently wrong with not believing in either concept of ego but they are certainly distinct concepts.

 

Of course, but I was referring to your concept of the ego, which is different from the self. Whether Freud's idea of it or your idea of it as a distinct psychological or material entity, I can't logically see the distinction you made because for me the content of the "I" IS the "I". Ego means "self" in latin, and that's how I was referring to it.

 

If you realize the drug induced ego death experience is separate from Freud's ego of the psyche, then Freud need not be brought up again.

This is from both wiki and free dictionary:

Ego is a Latin word meaning "I"

 

Mr. Toad, is that a R. Crumb drawing?

 

smoke salvia

 

i've had a lot of confusion about "ego loss" too. i guess the only time i'm SURE i experienced it was on two bong hits of 10X salvia. the room i was in was GONE, i was somewhere else completely, didn't know if my eyes were open or closed or if i was even seeing through my own eyes. it was certainly terrifying, and it wasn't blissful coming out the other end (noxious)
but i still knew there was this "me." that's why i was so scared, cuz i was worried what was happening to ME. so maybe it wasn't "ego loss"

this whole debate is just a matter of semantics

on LSD or 2ce, i think i've felt "ego dissolution" where i am empathetic to the whole human race, or to any living thing, shit maybe even to inanimate objects. i've "felt" my body dissolving into its surroundings, and my mind leaving my physical body, but i always felt i was ME.

when i trip i don't usually feel a disconnection from myself. i feel more in touch with my real self and more connected to everything else.

i've had a lot more "one-ness" themed trips than ego insulting ones