Gather round Christians...

hey guys...

I've been inspired to come back to the "Christianity" section by the "Jesus isn't real because I havnt met him" poster..

If you guys would share.. I'd like to hear your opinions of prayer. I have a few questions, but I'd like to wait to hear a few viewpoints before I ask them. (just to establish ground... I've made false assumptions in the past)
So basicly
-what do you pray for?
-what prayers does god even care about? Just big things, or insignificant little things too?
-why does he answer prayers sometimes, but other times seems to ignore them?

 

1. What do I pray for? I pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven (I've found this prayer to be 100% effective) and that I be granted to know, love and serve Him throughout my life (so far, this seems to be working, too). I also pray for the strength to deal with life's adversities, and to keep in mind that only God is important. I like the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's prayer. I pray for peace and justice in the world, and that my family, my neighbors, my friends and my enemies will live long and happy lives. (My friends call the prayers for the well-being of enemies the "Resentment prayer" and we are intended as the ultimate beneficiaries of this healing prayer.)

2. What prayers does God even care about? I don't know that (S)he cares about any of them.

3. I find that (S)he answers all of them. Sometimes the answer is No, which is useful information.

 

I pray all the time, for all kinds of things, most of which I forget about, though sometimes when something happens I'll remember what I prayed for.

I prayed for wisdom and courage a long time ago. After that my life became a living hell for a long time. But I got what I asked for - at least, I made major progress in those areas.

I once prayed for a car. I wrote down exactly the model, features and price I wanted. And the first time I went to the dealer, the exact car I had asked for was there on the lot, waiting for me.

Like Okiefreak, I'm not sure God cares one way or another about what we pray for.

Depending on what we pray for, it may take a lot to accomplish, and we may find ourselves going through all kinds of crazy experiences that seem like exactly what we DON'T want. About 11 years ago I said that the major things I wanted in my life were to simplify myself - to lose the facade I present to the world and just be my genuine self - and also to have lots of psychic experiences and to write about them. Well the first one - to lose my facade - required having the courage to open up about myself. So the first thing that happened is that all kinds of situations arose that put major stress on me and got me to do things I was ashamed of afterward and was then required to confess to. And lots of the things that happened were related to psychic experiences of one kind or another.

The thing is: Every time we think about a goal we want - or a thing we fear - we're praying, whether we're aware of it or not - and the universe grants our prayers. Always. All those myriad thoughts in your head create your world - your experience. If you think, "I don't want to get into a car crash," the universe says, "Yes, you're afraid of car crashes," and starts creating situations that will increase your fear of car crashes, and most likely get you into a few to really increase your fear effectively.

All these various prayers working together can make for a bewildering experience sometimes, especially if you have weaknesses and fears that are undermining your positive goals. That's what makes the spiritual journey so interesting. The universe shows us who we are by giving us the experiences we pray for, and thus increases our self awareness.

I could go on and on...in fact this is a major theme of the book I'm writing.

 

Sometimes I pray for things, but I am often reminded of postmodernist Derrida who wrote that praying with an expectation of a result is like ordering a pizza. What we do when we pray for things is present God with our needs and desires. Like a parent may know what a child wants when he is grabbing for it, the child is taught to ask.

Prayer can also be thanksgiving, adoration, or intentions (i.e. prayer on behalf of another person)
http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/02/five-types-of-prayer.html
http://www.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c3a1.htm

More generally: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s1.htm

God cares about all his children and no prayer is too big or too small. I find the best prayer is simply asking god to be with me, or for forgiveness and help in my sinfulness.

All prayers are heard. Again, if we expect a result, we are not praying. I also once had a professor who, after asking us to break into groups and pray intentions for various causes noted that he saw many people who said either "We pray for... that..." or "I am not asking for anything, except..." What he said we then did was limit God. We limited his choices. He already has a plan (how specific is up for debate) and saying "We pray for Mario, that he find his vocation in the priesthood" limits God to either helping Mario into the cloth, or "not answering our prayer". What is better is to say "We pray for Mario in his discernment of his vocation, especially now at his entrance to the seminary"--So all we ask is for God's help (which we always need).

 

Prayer...what an interesting subject.
I pray a lot...throughout the day, at the close of my "day."
At work, when I am about to snap (lol - I am a grill cook), I have found myself silently praying/chanting...Please make my movements swift, sure and right. (so far, so good)
I try not to get specific with my prayers, like Ukr-Cnd said. It does limit God, and then sometimes, yes, the answer is just plain no, like Okie said.
But there are times, like Zen described that you may (or may feel you need to) pray for specific things, and I personally have experienced That Specific Thing happening for me...
I think we should be careful for what we pray for - I forget where that comes from, but that is true.
I pray the Lord's prayer at least once every day.
I have wondered about those prayers that are given that no answer tho', I must admit...but not enough to stop me from praying.
Praying aloud, crying out to God from the depth of my heart, aloud, stopped me from getting raped 2 different times.

 

So... From what I understand, you don't ask god for specific things because you can't control his plan. You instead ask for his will to he done in situations, or to give you strength. But what if giving you strength isn't part of his plan? What if his plan is for you to fail miserably? What if his plan was for you to be the next Charles Manson? (since god has a plan for everyone, and his plan cannot be ruined, wouldn't murderers still be following the plan?)
Isn't asking him for strength just as limited as asking him for a good parking spot?

What about miracles? (assuming you believe in them)
my grandma was more in touch with god than anyone I've met, and when she got cancer many people came and prayed for her cancer to be healed, instead she quickly became dilusional and died.
A few months later my grandpa (an angry old guy) was having open heart sugery, when somehing went wrong. The doctors said he might not survive the day. All the same people got in a group and prayed for him, and he lived! (well... He went home, gambled and watched bad tv for a few months until he actualy did die)

The point is that everyone called his surviving an answer to prayer, a miracle, while completely ignoring their failed attempts at praying for my grandma, insisting it was god's will, and part of his plan. So... If god is going to do his will anyway, why pray? Who are you to attempt to change his plan?

If we take away the assumption that the Christian god exists, we call "god's plan" something else. We call it "life".

Would the outcome be any different if you prayed to Zeus? Wouldn't his "plan" trump any small minded human ideas, giving an excuse for any bad things that happen, while giving reason to praise him for the good?

People wouldn't have sacrificed humans thousands of years ago in hope of rain if it didn't work occasionaly.

 

My goodness Lostthoughts! what a way to approach the subject of prayer...anyway,
I believe that His/Her "thoughts" or plan do not involve the Charles Manson or murder scenerio, since we are given Free Will, which is a sort of main tenement here. Choosing to become a murdurer/actor of heinous crimes would involve one's choice here, not necessarily His/Her Will.
You should not confuse the will of God and the acting out of horrific things, saying it was God's Plan. I think (s)he will sit by while we screw our dumb-ass selves into the ground like a wood-screw, yes. Occasionally, if we are Persistent, and I do Mean onandon with it, we will get an answer to what we ask! Oft times, not as we had any idea would happen.
Also, regarding prayer - there are a number of places in the bible that it refers to prayer, and the power of prayer.
In your particular situation, I think that we come on this earth, and leave here on a pre-arranged schedule, and only SHe will alter that. People need to ascribe and give credit to God when I personally don't think God should be given "credit"...only it's just not on the shedule yet...or the schedule comes quicker than you'd think.
Praying to another god, I certainly wouldn't advise. Tho' there certainly are others that would scream in protest at my saying that. From what I've read in the bible, it is certainly implied that there are other gods... but they are less, imo.
People pray all over and forever because we all Need to believe that there is something greater than us, and that through meditation, prayer, or whathaveyou, we will connect and perhaps a difference will be made...even if that "difference" is within.
People from all cultures and religions have prayer, I am sure...prayer works.

 

I'm not gonna approach Zeus...we just had BAD weather here this past week...
lol

 

Like I said, how specific his "plan" is is up for debate.

I think the main extent if his plan it to bring all people to him through love and in love. We are free to choose to violate this, and is what most people choose as a lifestyle and what all people choose at one point or another.

I think that the specific "I pray for so and so, that..." type prayers only gives God two options, to answer affirmatively to our petition, or do not--and when it is no, we lose faith because "God doesn't care". We are not trusting God when we ask for something specific like that, we act like we know better what we need (which is really the basis for sin in the first place).

 

So.. (aside from asking for forgivness) is there any point in praying?

 

Here is an example of prayer...
In 1984, a tornado went through SC - Bennettsville, SC specifically...I had a 6 month old child and did not know a tornado was THERE...I just knew that our lights were blinking and that my incessantly crying child was just flipped out with the flickering lights, so I prayed deeply, chanting (it seems now) about the lights...and they "fixed".
The crying babe, sated, and my husband burst through the door - which right there was just about a miracle (another story), saying were we ok, etc...that a tornado had just passed through town, tearing up a lot, and NOBODY had lights but us for blocks and blocks. We lived in the (very small) town. We had lights throughout, when NOBODY in town did - and lost power only briefly when they had to cut everything off to cut iit back on.
Jim always said, from that point on, when he thought of prayer and God, he thought about those lights...our lights that he saw walking home when there were no others.

 

Lostthoughts, I just must ask...you seem intelligent enough - so why, how can you ignore certain things, facts given you...and almost get hung up on little points...

straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel

 

Oh, and regarding my lights in the 1984 tornado ....
I don't necessarily think that my prayer for lights was "granted" because of the crying baby or even my "deep" praying...but for Jim, maybe. He referred to that incident for years, and (I think anyway) it was a technical something that he felt was proof of, well, for lack of better words - the power of prayer. He said he knew after that, that God existed.

 

Expressions of love (thanksgiving), for one. How can there be a relationship in which only one party expresses their love? God does that through the Sacrifice of the Mass, how do we do it?

And again, we can ask for help, but it is when we expect particular result that we can get hung up. I don't often ask for things for myself, I mainly just thank God for daily things, forgiveness, and intercessions for others (for example, for the repose of the souls of loved ones and for al the dead) or pray the Scriptures, that is contemplate on particular verses, sayings, actions (of Jesus), or words.

 

I think the prayers are ultimately for us rather than God. Ideally, they are affirmations that focus and reinforce thoughts and values. Does it make sense to step back from the daily grind, count our blessings, give thanks for the mindboggling wonder of the universe and the experience of life and consciousness, and be grateful for them? I think so. I think people who think that's a big waste of time are really missing out on something important. I agree that asking for stuff might not be the most meaningful form of prayer. Marcus Aurelius (admittedly not a Christian) put it this way:
"One man prays thus: how shall I be able to lie with that woman?
Do thou pray thus:how shall I desire not to lie with her?
Another prays: How shall I be released from this? Another thus:
How shall I desire not to be released? Another thus: How shall I
not lose my little son. Thou thus: How shall I not be afraid to lose
him? Turn thy prayers this way and see what comes."

 

Personally I think the outcome would be similar, but maybe it's just me.

What's "bad?" What's "good?"

"The will of God," or "life," as you call it, is the result of incredibly huge numbers of incredibly complex interactions - so much so that it's easy to see it as random.

If somebody tries to tell you that the physical properties of the universe are defined by mathematical equations of relativity, field theory, and quantum probability - and you don't have even a basic notion of physics or math - it's easy to dismiss what they're saying as ridiculous.

You could dismiss math and physics study as pointless, go on about your business - and you'd never see the relationships that do in fact exist.

Or you could decide to check it out for yourself - requiring enough faith to at least suspend disbelief for some period of time - and start to study physics and math for yourself, and see if you don't start seeing some patterns. As objectively as you can, of course - maintaining ultimate skepticism at all times, and considering all alternative explanations you can think of. "Where doubt is shallow, belief is shallow." I forget who said that...

 

Okie, you are exactly right, in that I agree that prayers are for us, not God.
At some place in the bible, (can't find it right now) there is an example of a woman petitioning a judge time after time for something, and eventually she was granted what she asked for - because of her persistence...and we are furthur told that is how we should pray...with persistence, diligence. (Are you familiar with this in the bible.)
However, I find that the times I feel overwhelmed & "closest" to God is when I pray filled with thankfulness for this life, for the understanding I feel (S)He has given me. Yes, I too feel that one who does not pray prayers of gratefulness and thanksgiving is missing out on a lot.

 

Zen, I love it when you get to talking about physics, mathematical equations of relativity and how there IS a place (a Big place) for these scientific constructs when truly contemplating God.

 

I think it's all about mindfulness, Lynn - becoming more aware of the relation of the inner to the outer - becoming more aware of ourselves/the universe and the unfolding of events.

 

You seem to be under the impression that Prayer is merely the asking God for something but Prayer is more like just talking to a friend.

When talking to a friend do you only ask him for things? I don't think you would be friends very long if you did.