GOD & PROOF

Ok, Christians, you have heard me joke at you, poke at you, go into detailed discussion, debate, etc..etc.

Some of you here know that I simply love discussion and debating this issue, but what many of you DON'T know is this:

I am completely sincere when it comes to my asking of you to present any OBJECTIVE evidence for your OBJECTIVE "god".

Most of you, when I say this, come up with excuses either defaming me as "arrogant", "ignorant" or "evil". This, although it doesn't surprise me, fails to work to convince me at all.

I expected more.

I am mean, I was open-minded enough to read contrary evidence when I was a die-hard Christian. I am open-minded enough to listen and debate you guys and I am open-minded enough to consider any viable evidence. Honest.

For your information, I will say this: I only have two stipulations.

1) The proof does NOT have to be "concrete", but it does have to lead me to see that believing is MORE REASONABLE than not. That's all.

2) Subjective feelings, "answered prayers", and attributing your Aunt Nancy's remission of cancer to a miracle, DOES NOT count. I want OBJECTIVE, PHILOSOPHICAL REASONING OR HARD, COLD UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE. "Feeling something" in your blood-pumper ain't gonna cut it.

Think of this as fun, a challenge and a reward from Jesus if you win my "soul" (provided there is such a thing).

 

*more crickets*

 

*a grasshopper*

 

before i type or post much of any thing from this guy i'm gonna ask you. Have you read anything by Peter John Kreeft? I imagine you have because of you seminary background. But he dose make some good philosphical points such as

"If there is no God, where did we get the standard of goodnise by which we judge evil as evil?" then qoutes C.S Lewis and continues with. "If there is no Creator and there fore no moment of creation, then everything is the result of evolution. If there was no beginning or first cause, then the universe must have always existed. that means the universe has been evolving for an infite period of time--and, by now, everything should already be perfec. There would have been plenty of time ofr evolution ot have finished and evil to have been vaquished. But there is still evil and suffering and imperfection--and that proves atheist wrong about that universe.* That whole thing was him commenting how Evil be treated as evidince for a God*

such as "god created the possibliity of evil; people actualized that potentiality. The source of evil is not God's power but mankinds freedom"

if you have any intrest on me to write up more what this guy said i'd be more then happy to but i'm not gonna waste our time when you've read more of his books then i have.

 

Absolutely, but as I have said before I see no reason for what you call "evil" and "good" to be handed down by some deity. That almost sounds eerily ancient.

No, "good" and "evil" are terms which I prefer to refer to as "harmful" or "beneficial". We don't need a "god" for us as humans to realize that there are certain types of behavior that need to be curtailed if we want a society of peace and harmony.

Theft, murder, rape etc. cannot be tolerated in such a society. This isn't a matter of "absolute" moral law being handed down by Yahweh. It is a matter of common sense, I think.

A society of murderers, thieves and rapists would not last very long and is not beneficial to humanity in the long run. Since it is our instinct (overall) to protect ourselves and our young, feed ourselves, clothe ourselves, etc. we find that in order to get the most out of life we have to treat others fairly and with respect. Thus, we, as humans, see that the way to do this is to limit certain harmful behaviors and promote those which are beneficial.

I can't see how it takes a supernatural "law" or "God" in order to determine what is harmful and what is beneficial overall for human beings. It just takes a little experience and common sense application in order to achieve a peaceful society.

Unfortunately, we have NOT accomplished this yet.

 

The Universe HAS always existed.

To quote Kurt Vonnegut:

"How old is the Universe? It is one half-second old, but that half-second has lasted on quintillion years so far. Who created it? Nobody created it, it has always been here."

And why is our world so imperfect? Because bad things happen? It's all part of the balance, man. Yin and Yang, good and evil. Can't have one without the other. Nature is precisely calculated, and everything WAS in balance, until us humans fucked it up. Anyone that questions Nature, is crazy in my eyes.

As Hikaru's sig says, "I believe in God, only I spell it Nature."

 

This is really long, so if you don't want to read it, skip the italics, but read the beginning and the end: the Cliffnotes theology of the pseudonym MollyBloom::::

I was going to pull out the C.S. Lewis issue too raised in Mere Christianity: You're on a train and someone walks by and deliberately steps on your foot and continues on without apologizing. You're hurt, and angry and think "That's not fair." Well, where does that sense of fairness and unfairness come from?


So number one: Good and evil are forces that have been up for discussion for centuries across many cultures. So, I think I would begin my reason of faith with that: good and evil exist. So what and where is God in this world of good and evil?

Here I quote from the infamous essay that was held up as one of the reasons I'm not going to be a pastor. I hate when people write tons of stuff because I'm very impatient, but it takes more than a few words to explain why I believe there is a God, so bear with me:


Although we are currently in the world, God’s ways are not always the world’s ways. God is love and enlightenment, and everything that is fulfilling and just in the world. True justice is what God desires. Why then is there suffering? This is where I believe in the presence of evil in the world. God does not want God’s creatures to suffer sadness or injustice. So some other element must exist in the world that causes suffering. Buddhists would say our own human desires cause suffering. To a certain extent, I think this is true, but what do we say then of suffering caused by the evil and injustice done to us by other people, or by political corruption, or oppression of all kinds? Sin is the term that Christians use to identify this suffering.

Sin is everything that separates us from God. This separation has many forms. It could be greed, or selfishness, or turning our eyes away from injustice. The simple state of existing in our body separates us from God, not because the body is dirty or wrong, but because of original sin.

If we can connect to God through prayer, then why be a Christian? Isn’t praying to God once in awhile enough to connect with God and break the bonds of sin? This is where God’s plan incorporates Jesus of Nazareth. Christians believe that God wanted to re-establish a connection and a relationship with all humans, and break through that barrier of sin. So God did several important things through Jesus. As a human, God experienced all of the temptations and sufferings that we humans face every day. In this way, we can’t call the Lord a hypocrite, which is what God would be if he created us and then left us on our own to figure it out for ourselves. In that way, God would be like an overweight gym teacher who sends his students off into the field, and tells them to keep running, while he sits on the sidelines eating chips and drinking coffee.

Secondly, God, through Jesus, experienced the ultimate suffering as a human, which was to feel a total lack of God’s presence. On the cross, Jesus “lost contact” with God, crying out “My God, why have you forsaken me?” God experienced a complete abandonment of God. This is what the Scriptures mean when they say “Jesus died for our sins.” We suffer in life, but we know that God did too. God loves us so much that God experienced that end that we all, all humans religious or not, will face: death.

In John’s Gospel, Jesus says “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.” This means that we are the ones who need to make the change we want to see in the world. That’s what God wants. God doesn’t want us to suffer, although we do and we will, because evil is still present in the world. How we react to pain is up to us. We can wallow in misery, hold grudges, and be angry at all those people or things that we think caused us harm. In doing this, does that fulfill God’s will in the world or does that make the world a better place? Does it heal broken hearts, or help to stop the violence of war, or put food in the mouths of thousands of people living in poverty?

Finally, it is important to understand that living as a Christian does not give us a “get-out-of-jail-free” card from suffering in the world. After all, Jesus of Nazareth, the most peaceful and accepting person to have ever lived, provoked violent behavior in others. People can be afraid of changing themselves and admitting sin, and they will often vehemently resist the message of the Gospel. Though Christians are not free from the pain of this world, faith in Christ means that believers have a source of strength greater than themselves. The world may hurt us, but we trust God’s promise as revealed through Scriptures and as experienced in the Eucharist. Jesus’ death and Resurrection are a free gift on God’s part. There is nothing we “need to do” in order to earn God’s love. We believe in God through Jesus Christ, and trust that we have been forgiven.


--That last part is quoted from my essay. What I must add is that I see no point in thinking of Jesus as a "really exalted prophet" because my views on sin, and evil, are intrinsically connected with why I believe that Jesus was God. When it comes down to it, if you don't believe in the presence of sin in the world, then true, you really have no need to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. I think there are many Christ-like people on earth, now and that have existed. But Jesus Christ's death and resurrection are the only way I can explain sin and suffering. My faith in God, through Jesus Christ, explain the reason for good and evil.


I don't know if there is an afterlife. I trust that there is an afterlife. My faith cannot be proven, for then it would not be faith in the afterlife. It would be physical evidence of the afterlife. But not everything that is "real" is "physical."

Sorry if this isn't cohesive. I am hungover this fine MLK day and that's as good as it gets

 

I have always considered that since matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed and can only change form that it HAS always existed in SOME FORM.

Thus, the "universe had to be created by an uncaused cause" was never a real argument...in my eyes.

 

to me moments of pure love or pure awareness are moments of godliness that is always here, we're just conditioned against it...I think god is just a word people have given to those moments or experiences....confusion has led people to believe that its an outside force creating them, like the way christians have personified god

 

It makes sense, on an evolutionary scale, to help your fellows instead of competing against them, when possible, because they will also help you. Team effort is capable of more than singular effort. If you start working together with another organism, you will eventually develop a sense of ethics and morals that will help you work together with them.

That's a pretty dumb statement/conclusion. The universe DOESN'T have HAD to always exist. This guy speaks like he thinks that we haven't considered the possibility that, it could have come into existance (or changed existance?). Even if it has, it might have started over around the time of the big bang. Who is to say it was not perfect before it collapsed into a singular point and exploded again?

I disagree. Look at Australia! ^_^ They turned out pretty well, that they did mate!

Substitute "Him" for "it" and you're getting the same argument that theists say! Wait a second ...

Oh shit, have I crossed some kind of line?

Hell yeah.

 

Problem with Lewis's argument is that he's ascribing a finite goal to an infinite hypothesis;

If there was no beginning or first cause, then the universe must have always existed *(addressing the hypotheis that the universe may be infinite)*

...that means the universe has been evolving for an infite period of time--and, by now, everything should already be perfec. (ascribing a finite goal--perfection).

The word "perfect" would suggest that there's a level of quality that might be acheived beyond which nothing can progress, which is a denial of that things infinity, or, to put it into religious terms it's like saying there's a limit to God's goodness.

 

The "evolution creating perfection" argument isn't correct. If there is no otherly force controling things, any sort of evolution does not move towards perfection. Well in a sense it does, but that would be in a static environment, and since the environment/universe is always changing, "perfection" cannot be reached.

 

when i read it i was wondering "is he meaning evolution or "strongest surivie" if it was the 2nd then yeah prefection would eventully exist if its the 1st then yeah you right true prefection would never exist. But i think it was more of a philosphical statment then actully scientific

 

*more crickets*

 

*dips cricket in chocolote* look maw i'm cutlture!

 

Hadn't you rather try snails, instead?

 

well i didn't hear a *snails slurp* lol could you hear a snail slurp? and do the really slurp?

 

*slurp slurp slurp*

Just heard it.

 

now to deciede if its oliveoil or raw hmmmm!

 

"Most of you, when I say this, come up with excuses either defaming me as "arrogant", "ignorant" or "evil". This, although it doesn't surprise me, fails to work to convince me at all."

Hahah.. sorry dude but that was pretty funny!
Ok, you have your fun.