Have you ever...?

felt as if you could see the framework that is behind all things?

I have had conversations with both drug -using and non drug-using psychonauts where we have been thinking of the same idea or the same concept, but with different metaphors. There have been many such moments of pure understanding :sunny: and, of course, many moments of philosophical debate.

I want to compare the different psychedelic concepts that people come across and see how often people go through similar experiences, or how different some people's experiences could be. I'm curious to hear a few examples of psychedelic concepts common in different peoples trips.

A few of mine:
-my soul is running infinitely in an endless temporal loop, but every once in a while I find myself "snagged." All of a sudden, I realize I have been caught, yet again, in a seemingly never ending process of events. Primal fear ensues and I can do one of two things: accept or panic. If I panic, then I am damned and if I accept then my reality expands into a greater reality.
-A feeling of my human-ness. I think of everything only as is, with no preconceptions and I see my body as the delicate bag of mushy pulp that it is
-In normal perception, there is matter and energy, but, behind everything there is something else; a "third thing." always slightly out of reach, like Man's hand reaching for God in the Sistine Chapel.
-There is some sort of a framework behind everything. Its presence can normally be seen only by its influence on that which is normally perceived, but sometimes we may briefly get a glance at the "framework," itself.

...the list could go on forever, and I'll add more later, btu I'd like to hear some of the psychedelic concepts you guys go through, as you can best describe them.

 

yeah dude, like, all the time bro

 

Yes. This is what I believe to be the truth. We are not normally capable of perceiving the true nature of reality and psychedelics allow us to take in information that we normally filter out thus allowing us to see a clearer picture of how reality really looks/feels. I think the idea that the world as we perceive it is the be all and end all of existence is absurd.

 

i dont understand exacly what you mean but here are my 2cents.
i once thought that the world itself is just a loop. like the world is just a huge computer. and the program stops and restarts periodically and everything that happened before will happen again. so you are going to live the exacly same life again and again.
you can call the start "big bang" or god. or whatever. and the ending can be the big crunch.
its like a simulated reality. with more simulations inside it. and if the reality that everything else is inside restarts every thing will restart with it.
it like a vibration. a sine wave.
http://www.midnightmusic.net/MusicTheory/embedded/sine.gif
always moving expanig and shrinking. (the line in the middle is the zero point. it goes into negative and positive)

everything you are and every thing you experience is in your head. and your head is just another computer running another simulation. every simulation is a lot more simple than the one before it. so the world we inhabit is a finite world (your mind) inside a finite world (the world outside your mind) and that is inside another world and so on .. (of course we can skip this ) and in the end you will find a truly infinite something every thing came from.

that means the world we inhabit has a frame becouse our mind is not infinite. when you go far out you can reach this frame. maybe expand it and reconstruct it but you will never reach the true infinity becouse you cant put infinity into a finite world.

the big question is: where did the infinte world come from? we will never know becouse that can be only understood by a infinite mind. but the human mind can never be truly infinite.

well i dont really know what im talking about.....
what i do know is that the human mind will never understand how the world truly works. but we can understan how our mind works. you know physics, biology, mathematics, psychedelic experiences..... everything is about the human mind. with science we are observing the world our mind created from the world we inhabit. we cant go further than that. i think that is not possible. but we can understand ourselfs better.

 

I've had a few very similar experiences, but the path to get there is often different. Essentially, though, I think there is probably a multitude of different algorithms that can send one's soul to The Infinite.

What has happened to me has been that I have been taken to what some might refer to as the source or "place where everything came from." I like to call it "The Process." Here are a few of the "paths" that have brought me there:

-imersion in the world of polar opposites, like love, hate, ilfe, death etc, until they all come together in a system of perfectly balanced equations, converging upon one point and infinitely transferring energies between each other (as if in some form of ultimate energetic algebra). It is all encompassing and everything is part of it. It is a oneness and, since it includes all opposites, it is both everything and nothing: The Process

-another thing that has happened is that I will be in a temporal loop of experience. For example: I walk to the door, touch the door handle. I am back where I was before and I walk to the door and almost touch the door handle. I am back where I was before, etc, etc. And this experiential loop gets tighter and tighter until experience, itself loops around and latches in on itself, fractalizes and this one ten second long experience of walking towards a door and touching the handle becomes all that there is and expands infinitely, until it is something much greater -- something ineffable and infinite, built of something unimportant and finite.

(I'm not sure if any of this makes sense. It seems as if words cannot describe a lot of what we experience)

-another one I remember from one of my first high dose mushroom trips is simpler to explain:
Think of a moment; any moment. It could just be you sitting on your sofa with your laptop browsing HF. Now think of every chain of events that had to lead up to that moment. For example, the invention of your computer, the guy who made the glass the screen is made of, his birth, his conception, his father and mother meet, his father is born, etc... going back infinitely.
Now, Picture an isolated moment as a ball of light at the center of darkness, with an uncountable web of white lines coming out of it going off in all directions, all converging on that one moment. Each of these lines represent every conceivable timeline, every conceivable chain of events that led up to that moment. Hold that image in your head.
Now if you can isolate yourself in a moment and become one with it, becoming the microcosm that it is, then you can allow your soul to expand along the lines and the microcosm becomes the macrocosm. And you get the picture.

 

..been experienced? - Jimi Hendrix

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4yZXb4aD2Q"]Are You Experienced? Jimi Hendrix - YouTube

Do you guys think there are any hallucinatory drugs that can induce a common experience in all users?

 

Besides altered perception I doubt it but there are some hallucinatory drugs seem to create fairly common experiences in many users.

I tend to emphasize the importance of something along the lines of this when I'm pulling stuff from my psychedelic trips. I often feel insight into deeper workings of the universe and stuff but I'm not great at articulating that type of stuff or bringing it back and most of what I heard others say seems sort of abstract or difficult to grasp. Where I differ from you is I think our bodies are pretty amazing networks all held together in a pretty amazing casing rather than a 'bag of mushy pulp'.


I found this a pretty striking realization on my previous 4-aco-dmt trip...

 

I hear Ibogaine has this, but I don't feel I need to try it, at least not yet...

...and
I actually had an interesting experience that was simlar to this on a high dose ketamine trip the other day where me and my friend's voices broke down into their syllables we both felt the exact movements of the tongue that caused them and then we spoke to each other in syllables with slightly variated tongue positioning in order to convey different things. We started to build a new, simplistic language until we both just fell into a k-hole.

About the experiences of The Infinite again, has anyone else had any different "algorithms," or "paths" that brought them there?

 

Or maybe they are truely infinite because the answer is it didnt come from anywhere, its infinite therefore its always been there and always will be because its all there is.

 

arty:

The Real Peter Parker

It's all the same people. I think I joined 2 years ago but this thread has a lot of names I recognize including but not limited to guerilla hedge and prone. hey you all. a lot of people been on here forever hope you all never leave. A wealth of knowledge and real world experience would be lost -;; unthinkable. glad you are here to stay

 

:grouphug:

 

I think all of them induce a common experience, it just might not be the same one every time for every user. For example, even though LSD user A takes it and runs through the street naked, and LSD user B takes it and understands their childhood and the meaning of art/life/infinity etc, I think there is a common experience they shared; a homo sapiens neurological apparatus subjected to LSD plugged into its 5HT receptors.

If you mean can two people ever have the same trip, then I would say no. Can two people ever experience a painting in the exact same way? Even identical twins with identical lives would have slight differences in how they perceive things.

I like your framework concept. I know of what you speak. To play Devil's Advocate, my favorite game in the whole wide world, what if "the framework" is just a hallucinatory artifact from being on a psychedelic? What if all there really is, is this "stuff" that you see in daily sober life? What if THAT is all the framework there need be? And when you take a psychedelic, all that happens is a complication, a compounding of reality into levels, sub-levels, antechambers, attics and basements of reality. Think of the illusion (?) that inanimate objects have life while on something like LSD. Think of how trees suddenly embody powerful human emotions, and all things gesture. Is this perceived anthropomorphic animation less real or more real than the perceived "framework"?

I think if you think you know something, watch out

 

My perception of reality obviously changes when on psychedelics, but to see the framework that is behind all things? No, not a chance. I can, however, sort of imagine what that might be like. We are all just energy... imagine if we didn't see things in such a solid state? To focus enough to actually truly see the energy of everything? That would be a trip.

 

Perhaps this imagining that you talk about is actually your mind perceiving this framework and you simply don't realize the significance of it. Perhaps you simply haven't had a powerful enough experience to really see this framework and not just sense it or imagine it. Have you ever broken through on DMT? Because that's what I would consider to be a somewhat clear picture of true existence, although it's extremely hard to remember after the fact in good detail.

 

I'm not proposing that this "framework," or any other psychedelic concept should be taken as anything more than interesting allegory. If there's any truly useful lesson that psychedelics have taught me it's that I know nothing. I know that I don't know, so I know, if you will.

The idea is more of a "what if...?" sort of thing. Personally I am comforted by the belief that there is something other than simple formal reality out there, but I would certainly never go as far as to say that I know that this is so. Taking a leap of faith is always philosophical suicide, but its always fun to look at these concepts and run interesting hypotheticals like "If x was how the energies of the world were truly structured, then y..." and so on.

Now to what you said about the degree of reality of the anthropomorphization of inanimate objects, I think that pretty much anything that happens to you on a hallucinogenic voyage is nothing more than a projection of your subconscious, so all hallucinations have the same degree of reality. The trees that seem to be happy or sad are a projection of your inner feelings and are, thus, entirely real because they are real within your mind.

Now what if your subconscious knows something you don't? We see this all the time with the blockage of traumatic experiences (and, hey, Freud says birth is a traumatic experience, so maybe we're all blocking something). Hypothetically, if your subconscious were to somehow have an understanding of "the true nature of life," or "how things really work," (or anything else, for that matter) then if that understanding were to be projected onto the formal reality around you -- even if that projection were to be caused by a mere "complication" -- then what you are shown in the trip could be entirely real.

 

Nice to see you postin too bro! I dont spend much time on the comp anymore, been all over the place but I will always be a HF member I love this forum and I think the old group of heads need to start posting more. Had some ggreat discussions back in the day. Hey anyone know whatever came of dynamickid?

 

This is one of the ultimate questions of the psychedelic experience. Good way to put it

 

Allegory, that's got some power to it. The cosmic riddle is which is fable and which is fate? What is symbols about "something else", and what is that "else"? Are we the "else"? Is the psychedelic framework the "else"? What begets what?

None of this, us, seems to be possible without the Inherent Paradox.

 

Maybe it is not?