Hurt/offended by the Church/Christians?

Hey all

My name is Tim and I'm a pastor of a church in California. Before you guys close this link or report this as spam, do me a favor and just read on a bit.

Our church is going through a series on hot-topics. One person recommended that we do a message on gay marriage (since it seems to be all the rage for sermons these days). We decided to go in a different direction.

I was a creative arts major (music) at San Francisco State University. I lived on campus and in the city for years and have a number of gay friends whom I love and appreciate. It hurts me to see how the church at large treats them and shows such hatred/anger towards them.

We really want to focus this message not on whether gay marriage is right or wrong, but on the fact that no matter the sexual preference that 1) all people are people and 2) that as Christians we are called to love all people.

Why am I posting here? One of my previously mentioned friends in the city was supposed to take a stroll around the Castro with his camera to do some interviews. But ran out of time and flew home for thanksgiving. We're looking for some personal and real life stories about people who have been offended or hurt by interactions with a church or by Christians.

We want to show that the way that the actions of the greater church body is hurting people.

If you have a story to share, we'd love to be able to bring it to our congregation so that they understand the humanity of people and the result of inconsiderate acts. Our goal is not to sway them (or you through this forum) that gay marriage, or gay lifestyle for that matter, is right or wrong, but just that as followers of Jesus, our call is to love people, to sit with people and talk with them, to help anyone who is in need (not just people within our church walls) and most of all to "love our neighbors as ourselves."

So if you have a story, we'd love to hear it-
- What happened?
- How did that change your view of the church? of Christians? or even of God?

Thank you in advance.

 

OK here goes. I was born into Catholicism in a sparsely populated rural area and attended a 2 room Catholic school for 8 years. I completely bought the churchs teaching, I loved the idea of the Blessed Virgin and usually had a shrine in her honor. As well I brought flowers and cared for the shrine that the school had. As I grew toward my teens I became an Altar Boy (No, no sexual abuse). I was the best in our small school at Catechism lessons. I belonged to the church with all the zeal a young boy has to offer for something he believes in. Mind you I always was interested in other boys and was sexually exploring and active by the time I was in the 5th or 6th grade but I never dreamed that my feelings and love for other boys was a Mortal Sin. By my high school years I began to understand that in fact I was a sinner and was particularly vile in the eyes of the Church. A few confessions had taught me that I was in deep trouble with God and doomed to hell no matter how much I loved God and Church. I searched around through all manner of Church literature for some saving niche a young queer boy could fit into. There was none of course. Any representative of the Church that I ever spoke too had nothing but condemnation for someone as perverse as myself. Thus began a period of self loathing and self destructive behavior. All the boys I had once been sexually active with grew into happy young hetrosexuals. I lost the Church and lost the boys who once had been happy to lay with me in the joy of young lusty sexual fun. As the Church was so bent on rejecting me I broke with 18 years of devotion to the Church. I checked out other Christians practices only to find the same condemnation. I explored other belief systems and found little comfort. Eventually I drifted into the realization that Catholicism was strongly parallel to Pagan beliefs. In Paganism I found solitary comfort to continue honoring the Blessed Virgin now named as an Earth Goddess.

Never once in any of my efforts to reach out anywhere within any flavor of Christianity did I get so much as a hint of acceptance. A few times I heard that if a person happened to be Gay they had no choice but to give up any thoughts of expressing their sexual feelings. They must become celibate or better yet, overcome their evil ways and marry a woman and start a family. Today, decades later there is nothing any organized religion could possibly offer me. I have no use for a church or any of its trappings. I recognize that there are Churches/congregations who apparently do live according to the Spirit of Jesus's teachings. OK, Thats good but no thanks. I have found spiritual comfort and meaning through Shamans in the Jungles of South America. I have taken the Communion of plant medicines which allowed me to see that I do have a purpose and value. There I'll stay at one with God not opposed to God.

I have no idea of what you want or hope to gain from this but this is one minor chapter of Christianity failure to comfort a soul. In truth I'm grateful for it for I doubt I would have found the deeper connection that the Shamans have shown me otherwise.

 

Christianity and all other religions offend me because they corrupt our sense of reason and rationality.

They completely ignore, and in some cases work to undermine the basic logical and philosophical concepts which have given us so much.

Religion claims to be the source of morality, yet has been the engine of so much violence and bloodshed throughout history and even today.

The God of the bible commits horrendous atrocities upon his own creations, yet we are told that we 'don't live up to his standards'.

And Christ's ethics, some of which were good (such as turn the other cheek), were preempted by Buddha by 500 years.

God, to me, appears on the same ontological level as 'superman' or 'pixies', as anything that does not register on the senses directly is a figment of the imagination.

Religion tries so hard to convince us otherwise, usually using fear and hypnosis.

Religions (namely the Abrahamic religions) offend me because it they insult my intelligence, morality, and even spirituality. They impose restrictions on the freedoms of others, and even prevent progress of things like stem cell research and contraception in Africa....

Oh, and gay marriage.

 

This.

Also, OP, if you want an example of the Christian Church exemplifying God's love toward the homosexual community, may I direct you to the Westboro Baptist Church?

I have a long history with the evangelical sect of Christianity and I am a bisexual woman who has never been shy about my sexuality. In just one simple instance as an example, at an art fair while I was 16, I was walking with my girlfriend. All we did was hold hands, nothing else. One of my teachers happened to see me and I was suspended and threatened with expulsion for my "heretical behavior."

Suffice it to say that I have no positive experiences from within that realm nor any other religious realm (and I tried them all from Buddhism to Paganism and damn near everything in between.) I hated myself, saw myself as a hideous abomination, went through a period of self-destructive behavior and even a suicide attempt, all because of the shame and guilt I was told to feel by my pastors and teachers.

No religion offers anything tangible just vague rules and promises that are contradictory and elusive. The Abrahamic religions, in my opinion and experience, are some of the least tolerant and most hypocritical out there. I don't think you really need to look much farther to find judgment of the gay community by the religious right than to look at the issue of gay marriage. In the Constitution of the US, it states that "all men are created equal." Yet, there is still an entire chunk of the population not granted the same civil liberties as everyone else. Even illegal immigrants are entitled to more benefits than a gay citizen. The only ones that continue to strike down legislation that would amend this injustice are conservative (and 99 times out of 100, religious) people.

 

i greatly admire you, op, for this view.
it's unfortunately hard to get into how christianity and the church has affected our lives as gay people without giving some kind of right and wrong of it. :/ probably because it involves a lot of rhetoric.

church hasn't significantly changed my life. if anything, it's made the people around me more close-minded. also it has changed marriage for me, as almost everyone says marriage is a religious ceremony so you must adhere to religious rules. i dont agree with that, i believe marriage is just a universal ceremony acknowledged by most, even if it did start off as a religious ceremony, its not really now. i at first wanted to eventually marry, but i dont think i even would want to anymore, and idk if its because a good deal of hate or conflict is associated with it, or just cuz i dont want to be tied down to something that seems pointless to me.

 

If you want to continue believing that all gay people are in fact people I highly advise you to NOT go to the castro

And coming from a gay dude I've always seen it as pretty blatantly stated in the bible that what I do is a sin so I've just stayed away from your religion

 

Everyone, thank you so much for taking the time to post. Those that are hurt (either personally or "intellectually") by religion and those that may not have as strong a feeling... all in all I appreciate the time you took to respond and especially for your honesty.

There's so much that the stereotypical argumentative Christian in me wants to reply to in regards to faith, logic, the bible, religion, and God, but I promised that this thread was not for that and I'll stick too it. =o)

Please let me say that Westboro Baptist Church is THE EXCEPTION and definitely not the rule when it comes to Christians and interacting with the GLBT community. Many churches may on one side believe in similar things as them biblically, but they are THE example of what thousands of churches are talking about what we shouldn't be. (Similar to, but not as jokingly as ohsodreadful's slam on the Castro! to which, haha... I get it... And living in and around the city for most of my life I agree).

Boguskyle- "church hasn't significantly changed my life. if anything, it's made the people around me more close-minded." - The reason why I posted this was to get honest opinions from folks to bring to my church to help make them more open minded. Many churches see the fault that you've pointed out and this postmodern generation of the church is hoping to correct that very issue.

Rider on the storm - Thank you for sharing honestly. On the issue of gay marriage - I agree. I believe it is what has apparently been the straw that broke the camels back on any potential relationship between the gay community and the church. To which, in my opinion, if there ever is to be any contact between the 2 communities again, it is the church's job to be humble, apologize for rash actions, and work to reconcile to a community that may not (and probably in most cases should not) accept the apology. I've been Christian for about 15 years, but American my whole life. The prop 8 vote tore me in half considering my friends who were hoping to have marriage in their future.

Enk - Yes, you bring up many points that I do hear often. =o) As a Christian Apologist, I'm doing my best to not reply line by line to what you wrote! haha. I think there are many things both in faith, and in the tangible world, that go so far beyond our understanding at this point that in everything, we lose rationality and logic somewhere (for example - The Big Bang - which was a scientific principle that itself violated Newton's scientific laws of physics). I do my best to use logic and rationality when I explain what I know to my church and we do not try to use fear or hypnosis to control people (although i do concede the fact that many churches have in the past and many continue to use fear today). Thank you again for your honest opinion. it is much appreciated and definitely well understood. Please know that not all churches are the same and some are working to dispel the myths and mystery that other churches establish.

Yarapario - wow. Thank you for sharing such an intimate testimonial. I'm sorry that you never found acceptance as that is one of the primary things that I believe Jesus teaches us to express to the world. I know you said you have no use for organized religion, and although I work for a church, we encourage our congregation that the most important thing for them is their individual relationship with God ahead of their relationship with the church. Attending church on Sundays doesn't bring salvation, and not attending doesn't mean that you can't be intimate with God. The parallels between catholicism and many other world religions are striking and much of it is due to a large moment of syncretism in early settlements. I'm glad that you've found a spirituality and a oneness with God and not an opposition to God. I hope and pray that you continue well on your faith journey.

Again. Thank you everyone. I very much appreciate it. I will do my best to really talk to my congregation about loving those whom they may not agree with and letting their actions towards humanity be what people in the church as opposed to its unbiblical belief that we can/should judge. The bible is clear on that front and addresses the churches and believers that do judge

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?.... Matthew 7:1-5.

Take care and God bless.

 

I honestly just think that gay people are only adding to the problem by pushing it in others' faces. You don't need to scream that you're gay to people and make a big fuss, all you really need to do is live your life. If gay people want to be treated like people we should start acting like them

 

Sorry, but that is not too far out of the closet. I am an in-ur-face kinda guy.

I don't want ppl to think that me and Jim were "roommates" or "traveling companions." WE WERE A COUPLE! Just like so many other long term couples who in effect are living a bona-fide marriage that is not sanctioned by many churches and the law. Churches are free to do what they believe but the law is for everyone - equally.

So, if I kiss my boyfriend on the public sidewalk is that pushing anything in anyone's face? I see girls and boys kissing in public all the time and everyone thinks it is so charming.

I want to be treated like people - including when I want to do what heterosexual couples do without shame.

OH, it is not only same-gender relationships that I talk of here. My wife Brenda and I had a codeword called KissMe. We used it whenever we saw anyone looking at us with disdain because we were an interracial couple. We put it in their face and DEMANDED to be treated like anyone else.

[/rant]

 

Timmr I appreciate your interest in the vastly diverse group of us who fall under the banner of GLBT. Obviously we are no more similar to each other than any other identified population save for our sexuality so you get diverse responses to your inquirey. It would have been valuable to many of us to have been welcomed and included in the church we were born into but that didn't happen. Churchs and organized religion in general have the potential to do so much good. I know of many that do perform the corporal and spiritual acts of mercy. That part of a church is probably what I miss the most though I have found other ways of participating. From what you posted here it seems as if you might very well have heeded the words of Christ in offering kindness to others. Thank you for that. Speaking only for myself, I know I get very jaded toward religion and often overlook the value it has for many.

I hope your Thanksgiving is Blessed in all the ways that are good for you and your loved ones. Que te vaya bien. Yarapa

 

1.Why do people -need- to know you're a couple?
2.no, it isn't. I kiss my boyfriend in public and hold hands
3.Trust me, I find heterosexual people fucking in parks and public bathrooms and dancing in the streets shaking their genitalia in your face and making disgusting comments about you or your friends just as disgusting as homosexual people that do those things. But the truth is it's primarily the homosexual people doing it
4.well aren't you an activist

 

The huge problem with your statement, is that to many people, merely openly stating that you are gay, and not keeping your relationships as "behind closed doors" secrets, is "pushing it in other's faces". Also, for many people, any public display of affection between two members of the same sex, especially if they are male, is not considered acceptable.

Also, heterosexuals can be, and more often than not are, just as perverted sexually as gay people. If your requirement of "pushing it in people's faces" is having sex in public and shoving your genitalia in other's faces, I have to say, I have yet in all my years to personally witness such behaviour. From gay or straight people.

 

1.That's not the way I think so I don't speak for those people

2.You obviously have never been to a gay pride parade

 

you're preposterous.
you use the the words "truth" and "obviously" wrongly.

and pride parades are not sex parties. something makes me doubt that you've gone to one yourself.

 

We do what we can when we can, smart boy.

Maybe you should leave the comfort of the Bay Area and go live in Louisiana, Mississippi or even rural Florida for a while. Get away from all that flagrant in your face gay debauchery.

 

Wow! haha. I walk away from my computer for one minute and come back to find this interesting discussion.

Can I ask a question here? (related but separate to the previous)

You all are talking about the difference between (not to generalize anybody or show that I'm agreeing on either side, but just for discussion purposes) "in your face" vs. "in the closet" homosexuals or even bisexuals... the difference being public displays vs. a more conservative general rule of keeping intimate moments as private at home moments.

How does the GLBT community feel about Christians who are "in your face" and do you see a difference between them and believers who may not be as out there in the streets? If it is okay to have public displays of affection for hetero or homosexuals is it also okay to have public displays of religion and faith? Just like Shales codeword "kissme" to sort of make people who felt uncomfortable with either an interracial couple or gay couple as a sort of "in your face" display, is it okay for a Christian to do the same to someone who may not feel comfortable with their faith in public?

And please don't think I'm implying anything, this question is just out of curiosity and for discussion's sake. (My college debate prof would always play "devil's advocate" but being a pastor, I don't like that term, so I picked up a term from my friend and say, 'I'm just playing Al Pacino here' - little movie reference)

 

1. Im not saying it was, although it sounded like it.

2. You're right. I'm not bi/lesbian so of course Ive never been to one. lol Though I have trouble believing that gay parades include having sex in public. About gay parades, I can see the pros and cons of them. But its a catch 22 situation, really. As long as there is prejudice against gay people, then they probably think the parades are necessary, and perhaps they are. Although the parades themselves does make it seem as if gay people are a different kind of people than straights. I have heard of gay people who object to the parades. And like I say, I can see both sides of the arguement.

 

i think people feel special when they're a minority and they cherish it. some christians and other religious church-goers may feel like a minority too.
i don't think anything is wrong with expression in general, so if someone was 'in your face' with their whatever, then the consequences or outcomes are on them whether other people respect it or not.
the most important thing is that law supports equality.

 

I have seen great disparity amongst religious ppl as I have seen in the so called "gay community." Ppl have different takes on things, some more pushy than others.

There are already public displays of religion, whether all the churches one sees everywhere (some places more than others) to the cultural mythos that encompases Christendom. You can't sneeze in America without someone saying god bless you.

But I haven't recited the Pledge of Allegiance to our flag since they put that under god thing in it. I resent that this be our motto: in god we trust. It really grates on Atheists, Agnostics and Humanists to be insulted in a supposed secular nation by the assumption that they would not mind referencing god on all our money.

I even have to make a point with lawyers and judges when called in to take an oath that I will not say "so help me god." And, even in a large metropolis like Miami you still sometimes get looked at like some kind of satanist.

So, yeah, religion is in our face every day and sometimes in an official capacity, which it should not be.

Now the second part bolded may be referring to the guys who come up to you handing out tracts or trying to preach to you on the street. That kind of in-ur-face is annoying.

I don't really mind the Mormon guys who come to my door because I like to play with them, all trim and cute in their ties and white shirts and inexperience. My apartment is R-rated and they get a glimpse of some of my art and fotos and usually want to just get away.

So you see we already have religion dominating our existence - but the religious don't even notice - just us dissidents who disagree. Makes me want to go kiss Raul in front of a church. :love:

 

We had one here on Miami Beach last April:

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=396921&highlight=pride+miami+beach&f=59

They used to be more frequent and I was surprised to come across this one because they seem to have gone out of vogue. It was fun, festive, low-key sexual as you can see in the fotos, but not having sex in public. I really enjoyed the cammaraderie and the political messages about marriage rights and ending DADT.