If the Christian God is truly all knowing...

For God to look at what he has for breakfast tomorrow from a different end of time implies that God is existent in some sort of present, which would be contradictory to him being "above time".

 

The alternative is that he has simply watched the whole universe all the way through before at some point, rather than seeing every moment simultaneously. If you want a clearly established model, rather than just my explanation, you could use Vico's notion of cyclical history.

The universe doesn't have to have been written in its entirety in order to be read, any more than you need to have written a whole book for a reader to skip ahead by a page. The next page, the next few seconds, are always going to be fairly predictable.

I guess the thing here is, if you believe in predestination, you consider the history of the universe to have been written already, and then you just fit God's omniscience around that. Whereas, if I believe in free will, and imagine a universe still being written, then God's omniscience fits around that. My belief is that the future has not been created yet, thus doesn't exist, and is thus beyond the remit of omniscience. I would define omniscience as knowing everything, but I don't see the requirement that everything which can be known needs to be.

So yeah, I think that we're at an impasse. I would suggest that, if one believes in free will, there is room for God's omniscience within that, just as, if one believes in destiny, there is room for God's omniscience in that. I would also suggest that, if God's omniscience was dependent on predestination, God would not be omnipotent, because He'd be unable to change anything.

 

:smilielol5:

 

Just to clarify matters, what you quoted by me is taken out of context from an ongoing discussion with Hoatzin where he said; I didn’t understand what he had said so I was merely trying to restate what I thought he had said, not necessarily what I believe.

As for me I do not believe that God is omnipresent and because of my definition of what omniscience and omnipotence is some might say that I don’t believe that God is omniscient or omnipotent either. I also believe in free will and not predestination.

 

Charming.

All I was ever arguing was that it's not impossible for omniscience and free will to exist. As far as I can tell, you were arguing the reverse. I'm not clear on why you were doing so, but hey, as long as we all had a good laugh, right?
:cheers2:

 

So in one thread you believe God is all powerful and in this one you believe God isn't?

 

or maybe free will is a gift...

I think you should challenge god and find out the hard way.:seeya:

As for me I'm keeping my faith.

Do what you do.

 

And you thought I was misunderstanding you! No, I was not arguing the reverse but just that what you were saying didn't seem to prove it did and why. But hey, all is well that ends with a good laugh.

 

Actually, I believe God is all powerful in this thread as well. I was just pointing out that my definition of what omnipotence is, is some what different than some believe it to be and because of that difference they might say that I don’t believe that God is omnipotent. Sorry about the confusion.

 

Just a side note for this thread:

christians belive that god knows everything and can do anything.

of course to a logical person this will bring up the most obvious paradox: how can god give you a choice and still know everything including what you will choose? (is it really a choice then, because he created you in a unique way and knew your destiny therefore knew your choices?)

heres another classic example: can god make something big enough that even he cant move!! lol. i dunno.

but heres the point: theists have an unbeatable comeback to any kind of logical paradox found in their own religion. it is that its actually not logical. it is beyond our understanding. so with this kind of rebutle it is impossible to apply logical contradictions, so i would just drop this argument as it can never really be won.

 

A better comeback is that omnipotence and omniscience don't mean the ability to do things that are logically contradictory--e.g., make something big enough that God can't lift. Free will likewise self-limits God's control.

 

Actually "Christians" that believe the Bible know that it says; it is impossible for God to lie, so they know that there are some things that it is impossible for God to do.

 

I guess one could also argue that, if God created everything, He created logic, meaning that before He created logic, He could have done logically impossible things? That would permit omnipotence - the power to do anything would include the power to do things which would by consequence limit one's own power.

Or, if logic is a human construct - requiring the conception of the impossible to be necessary - then we as people have only ever lived within the creation of God, and thus the foundations of our logic are based entirely within that creation; outside (or within another creation?), other logic would be founded on the rules as they applied.

Crap argument, but then, I'm not the one who has to make it.

 

He didn't "make" us rebellious ~ we were rebelious because of selfishness, because of our love of being alive, incarnate, feeling, sensate, aware of all of the beauty He gave us, and we mistakenly thought that we were on the same page as Him.

This is one of those really hard things to 'get,' but God never changes.

For sin, He demands sacrifice.

But He loved us so much, He sent His own Son, the only perfect human being to ever exist,

to DIE for our sins ~

ALL of our sins ~ past, present and future

because He loves us so much, He had to provide a bridge back to Him for us.


Yeah, i know. i'm a Christian, so my opinions and views on this subject are suspect. But guess what? i wasn't born into a Christian family; in fact, we lived a basically atheistic life. i was a wild child in my youth. In my own strength, i was a murderer, an adulterer, and a thief. (Amazingly enough, i was never much of a liar, always preferring the truth ~ if nothing else, it was easier to remember! :rofl: And, of course, i remember getting spanked for lying, and the way my Mom explained to me how much it hurt her for me to try to hide myself like that.)

In His strength, i'm what you see before you.

i can go back and live that other life if i want to. i can hate, i can bully, i can be a world-class jackass. i CHOOSE to be none of those things. i CHOOSE to live a life of praise for everything He has given me.

THAT's Free Will. THAT's the ability to make choices for yourself..

 

Acually you forget that both Adam and Eve were perfect before they sinned or perphaps you're trying to say that Jesus was the only one to remain perfect his whole life.

 

I was perfect...until I was peer pressured into a homosexual blowjob

 

That ^ is the most concise explanation - and I've read through the entire thread (except for some of the blathering). And for all of the intelligence of the posters, it is a little amazing that it is so Very Difficult to comprehend us having free will and God's omnipotence.

I may Know what my son will do - but that Surely doesn't mean I took away his free will. It simply means that I know him...and in that vein, just because God knows All, why think that takes away our choice?

In my past, I've been angry at God, and done some serious sinning and questioning of Everything - He certainly did not take away my free will. However, I realized the Wrongness of my way, and I Chose to rededicate myself to God. Again, free will at work - but at the same time I believe God knew all along I would return to His fold.

 

But do we know if we have free will when it occurs?

God truly can know some thing about this. To me I know of free will clearing my way from the Causality of these things for understanding in some interpreted stance of determination.

To us again. I know often a lot about the sinful nature in some freely willing act because it is the willing for and in the knowledge defining the freedom as much as the determination. Once talked about that is universal for anyone talked for.

I believe that God knows what we talk about. He also knows the 'nothing' for what we talk about.

 

Once again, there is a difference between a human "knowing" something and God "knowing" something.

If God foreknows something and it doesn't happen it means that he is not God but if you foreknow something and it doesn't happen it just means you're human.

Thus if God, not you, foreknows something it will happen and that very foreknowledge removes all free will in the matter, you just don’t have a choice.

You can think you do, you can say you do, you may even believe you do but the simple truth is you don’t.

The only way for you or anybody to have free will, given that there is a God that is omniscient, is for him to choose not to look into the future in your case and see what you will do, thus allowing you to choose for yourself.

 

If you ask me, God IS omnipotent in every way, and all of these attempts to put limits on God and say that something is "impossible" for God to do are just sad attempts to raise your ego up by giving yourself a false sense of control.