Intelligent people do not believe in god(s) or practise a religion

I agree all those examples are flawed, since they all partain to human beings. In fact I think I stated that as well. However, not every example has to be perfect.

You are right, I think free-will means having the freedom to make a choice, although God already knows the outcome. But I don't think that means that we have lost our freedom to make a choice. He has already seen what we will do, thus, he already knows.

 

No example can be perfect, but neither do we need to interject with fallacious arguments.

You continue to state this, however, you failed to say exactly how this can be regarding the questions I have asked you regarding the obvious problem between the omni-max qualities and "free will".

If you'd rather just believe that way, I will except this (although I will disagree) and we will move on. Agreed?

 

Why? What reasons do you offer for such a belief?

 

*LOL* So, WHO creates the "options"?

So, "God" knows in advance of "his" having created us the choice we will make (you call that "free"), and the results of this choice after "HE" created everything that exists and put it into motion. AND controls it.

Although, you say he "chooses not" to exert that control.

How do you know that is so? What evidence do you provide for this assessment rather than the other?

 

So hes in direct control of everything??? I never said that did I? Perhaps he is uses indirect control? Laws of nature and the like set up the rules and boundries he wants us to posses. He creates the outline of the story and we fill in the blanks.

You are letting your idea of God cover over everyone elses.


But let say he does take direct control. And we are only allowed to make choices within the story he has set up for us. Does it matter if our choices are limited? If you really want to be like Christ. Then its "Not my will, but your will". I'd rather live in the will of God then my own.

Both Rayne and I have told you how we belive Free will works, God's ability to be in our past, present, and future. You say that is illogical, to you yes it is because you don't belive in God. To us its logical because we do. You want to use both sides of the fence, You want to argue how an omni-max God can't allow free will, but at the same time when we show an omni-max God can you say its a Logical Fallacy because he is an omni-max God and they can't exist. Choose what you want to debate, and leave the rest out. You can't say an omni-max God can't allow free will and then reply to us saying "it dosen't work because he is an omni-max God and they don't exist"

 

I believe I mention "indirect" control and how that applies. How could it possible apply that WE will fill in the "blanks" when, apparently, there are no real "blanks". The script has already been written by the "author" who already knows what each character is going to do before that character does it. There is no ad-libbing. *lol*

Can you surprise "God"...the "screenwriter"? The ALL-KNOWING Screenwriter?

This is unfair. I have been very careful in allowing Rayne to define "god".

The "choices" are SEVERELY limited. So, limited, in fact, that we must follow the script that has been written. My "will" comes directly from "God's will", if "God" is, as the scripture says, the one whose will determines even the hairs which fall from your head.

Is there any other reason to believe that this is not so? If so, provide some evidence.

Excuse me? What? I am merely asking you to offer some evidence of HOW an Omni-Max "author" (god) who has a "plan" laid out, knows exactly what everyone is going to do before they even do it (yet, created this mess anyhow), loves every "unconditionally" (yet can't figure out a way to fix the whole sin problem without "hell") and has all-power that exists (even that which Rayne has said is unbound by logic, but failed to bring any reason or evidence for) could possibly be cohesive with a truly "free" will, when the very idea is not merely inconsistent, but paradoxical at WORST and a severe "stretch" to say the least.

I've heard "I believe, I believe..." and I have heard that even "God's" prior knowledge of what will happen MILLENIA before it happens does not mean he "caused" our actions when they happen, but it seems quite a remarkable thing to believe that such a benevolent, omni-max "God" would give creatures "free will" when he KNEW he would give them FREE WILL and knew what they would choose with that "Free Will" before they chose it!??! *ROFL*

Pardon me, but THAT is quite an astronomical problem to solve!

He KNEW he would make Bob. He KNEW he would give Bob "free will". He KNEW Bob would choose with Bob's "free will" not to believe in "Him", and He KNEW that Bob would get married, have three children (all would be non-believers) and that Bob would die in a car accident and go straight to Hell.

If he KNEW all this at the BEGINNING OF HIS "CREATION", I ask of you HOW COULD BOB HAVE HAD ANY ALTERNATIVE TO CHOOSE OTHERWISE?

Thus, I cannot yet see any reason to believe how your "free will" could be cohesive with such an entity, such an "author".

 

I will agree to disagree with you, I have no problem with that. As you fail to see how those omni-max qualities mean we can have free-will, I fail to see how it keeps us from having it. So just two differant takes on the subject I guess.

 

I fail to see any evidence FOR believing it. I think the point has been made that such a benevolent, omni-max "God" would give creatures "free will" when he KNEW he would give them FREE WILL and knew what they would choose with that "Free Will" before they chose it. *roflmao!*

That's a lot of philosophical gymnastics to get around that one, Rayne. You are arguing from a "causal" standpoint, but such a standpoint is only giving you a "safe" on a direct, immediate cause NOT A PREDETERMINED PLANNED CAUSE, which the Bible obviously lays it. If not, explain how no hair falls from your head lest he WILLS it and every event that "god" knows will happen is part of HIS plan and WILL happen. HOW IN ANY FORM OF LOGIC IS THAT COHESIVE WITH A TRUE "FREE" WILL?!?

I mean the script has already been written by the "author"-- who already knows what each character is going to do before that character does it. There is no ad-libbing. *lol*

Can you surprise "God"...the "screenwriter"? The ALL-KNOWING Screenwriter?

If it can be done, ISSUE SOME EVIDENCE of that.

 

Lib, the point is *no* one can prove free will 100% the only way to do that is make an A B desicion, then go back to that same desicison and choose the oppsite.

Since you chose path A I could say you were "predestined by the laws of the universe" but if you were able to go back then choose B you could prove your free will.

Since time is a straight one way arrow. Can YOU prove to me your free will?



I'm just going to have to ask you to ask your question agian becauset parts like these

Can you surprise "God"...the "screenwriter"? The ALL-KNOWING Screenwriter?

*Why* Do you keep saying "All-Knowing"??? Because I can't stress the fact enough that JUST because he KNOWS dosen't mean he MADE us do it.

It makes me wonder if i'm missing something.

 

Most of the time its just easier to do things like this in more or less real time lol.

 

I said nothing of proving "free will". You and Rayne are the ones who claimed such.

Secondly, time is relative. (again)

I keep saying "all-knowing" because that is what omniscience IS. It is not only knowledge of past, present and future "events", but any and all knowledge that exists.

I will repost again and you can answer these questions.

If the "screenwriter" or "author" wrote the Divine Plan and KNEW IN ADVANCE that what each "character" would do, HOW, MIND YOU, COULD THAT CHARACTER DO ANYTHING OTHERWISE?

I mean the script has already been written by the "author"-- who already knows what each character is going to do before that character does it. There is no ad-libbing.

I have heard that even "God's" prior knowledge of what will happen MILLENIA before it happens does not mean he "caused" our actions when they happen, but it seems quite a remarkable thing to believe that such a benevolent, omni-max "God" would give creatures "free will" when he KNEW he would give them FREE WILL and knew what they would choose with that "Free Will" before they chose it!

He KNEW he would make Bob. He KNEW he would give Bob "free will". He KNEW Bob would choose with Bob's "free will" not to believe in "Him", and He KNEW that Bob would get married, have three children (all would be non-believers) and that Bob would die in a car accident and go straight to Hell.

If he KNEW all this at the BEGINNING OF HIS "CREATION", I ask of you HOW IN THE HELL COULD BOB HAVE HAD ANY ALTERNATIVE TO CHOOSE OTHERWISE?

If you ignore any question on here, please answer the last one. Tell me HOW one could have any alternative option to that which "God" KNOWS you will choose.

 

I would first like to clarify the fact I've taken 3 diffrent stances on free will. a Direct God, an Indirect God, and Sacrficing free will, I haven't posted what I belive. Why? Because I'm still undesicive.

Since most of the questions relate to the last one I'll just answer it.

First I'll point out this..

I would like to place the emphis on "KNEW bob would choose".

Not "God made Bob choose" Bob can't make any OTHER choice when that time comes because Bob wants to make *THAT* choice. God, just knew which one HE wanted to make in the first place. If we didn't have free will God would have interven and made Bob choose the "right" desicion wouldn't he?(for the sake of simplicty lets all assume God wants people to not go to hell)

 

For what ever reason, thats not what I thought you meant. Lol my bad?

 

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION, KRIS? ... DOES BOB HAVE ANY OTHER ALTERNATIVE OPTION TO CHOOSE TO DO OTHER THAN THAT GOD KNOWS HE WILL DO?

And if you say "Bob" wants to...then I answer by saying "God" knew "Bob" would want to and thus, "Bob" had NO CHOICE BUT to "want to" because "God" made it part of "his plan" and thus, "God" is in control of "Bob's wants" and thus, there is no "free will".

As a matter of fact, "God" knew "Bob" would choose "Hell" MILLENIA before he even created the universe. Right?

 

IF YOU WANT ME TO ANSWER THE QUESTION WITH SIMPLE YES OR NO OR MAYBE ANSWER THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE CAPS! CAPS MAKE YOU SEEM LIKE A MAD 13 YEAR OLD WHO JUST NINJA LOOTED A RAID OKAY? OKAY!

honestly, I have very little respect for people who can't get their point across with out USING ALL CAPS!11!!!! OMGZ!!11!!11

Bob Can't, make any other choice then what God knows BOB will make. Why? Because God is 100% correct in answer.

OMGZ RAXOR DA L33T

For chriss sake man!

 

I do belive that in order to live your life like Christ you must sacrfice your will.

 

My apologies. I use CAPS and BOLD for emphasis only.

"Bob Can't, make any other choice then what God knows BOB will make. Why? Because God is 100% correct in answer."

Exactly.

Because it's part of the FOREWRITTEN, FOREKNOWN SCRIPT. Bob truly has NO OPTION but to do what "God" foretold he would do. So, either "God" is not omniscient, Bob doesn't have "free will" or "God" is one BIG ASSHOLE who cares more about his little puppet game than creating a perfect "heaven on earth" (which could've been done in the first place).

From the CREATION OF EVERYTHING--- BOB WAS DAMNED TO HELLFIRE. Poor "Free Will" Bob!

At the moment God created the universe, surely He knew all that would happen throughout it's entire history. If so, then He is directly responsible for all our actions - we have no more choice in what we do than a clockwork toy or an actor playing his role does. No ad-libbing!

 

In all honesty I could care less about my free will. If I truly want to live my life according to God's plan then I must sacrfice it. I'm okay with that, its my sacrfice(or the illusion of)

 

You're being "sacrificed" alright.

Either by your own "will" to a fantasy or by a bloodthirsty "God" who winds us all up like toy soldiers.

Either way...your life. Live it and love it.

 

Accepted, I play to many games and do too much tech support.... So all caps = anger or something similar

Maybe I'm even damned to hellfire? I'll see when the roads ends