Is Jesus God because of (John 8:56-59) ''before Abraham was, I AM''

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Hi everyone, I hope you are all fine and happy today and everyday, Amen =)​

I already commented on this verse in my thread [Is God 1 or 3? ]and I wrote this thread as a response to this Post​

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However, let's see other opinions, (I will add to them too) ​

* John 8:56-59: byDr. Biblal Philipsè(post#2)​

* John 8:56-59: Misha'al ibn Abdullahè (post#3) ​

* John 8:56-59: by http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.htmlè (post#4) ​

* John 8:56-59: by: Ahmed Hoosen & Osama Abdullahè (post#5)​

* John 8:56-59: byDr. CatStevens =) è (post#6 & 7)​

* John 8:56-59: by Shahid Bin Waheedè (post#8) ​

* John 8:56-59: (post#9) ​

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NB:​

*You can choose one of the above writers and read his opinion, for a summary click here​

* violet and blue words are links OK =)​

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Here we go… ​

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Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

John 8:56-59
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By: Dr. Biblal Philips ©
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John 8:58: “Jesus said unto them, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.’” This verse is taken to imply that Jesus existed prior to his appearance on earth. The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth.
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*Steven: Jesus was born later after Abraham at the time of King Herod! So, what did Jesus mean by "I existed before Abraham was even born!''
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However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘aan. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: “Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”
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Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world When he established the heavens, I was there.”
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According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”
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Prophet Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham was, I am,” cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God’s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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John 8:56-59​

By: Misha'al ibn Abdullah © ​

John 8:56-59 "before Abraham was born, I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus (pbuh) was present before Abraham (pbuh) is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then​

Would we say about Solomon (pbuh) (Proverbs8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews7:3) who were supposedly present not only before Abraham (pbuh), but also before all of creation?​

What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their​

births. (See Ps.89:20, Is.45:1 ,Is.61:1 , 1 Sam.24:6 and Jer.1:5 )?​

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read "others said -- `This is he;' and others –​

' He is like to him; ' he himself said,--' I am [he].'"John9:9 /John 9:9(WYC) ​

Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied "And he said, 'He is a prophet.'" John 9:17*Steven: God isn't prophet.​

Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.​

Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"?​

Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.​

The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"​

However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"​

So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"? ​

When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'" ​

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*Steven: The New American Bible wrote the following as a footnote: ​

I AM: the Greek word used for "am" is the one reserved for the Logos.(for more about John and​

And logos in NT click, here and here, and to read the footnote from the (NAB) click here # (24) ​

The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58​

and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"​

The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58​

In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:​

"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am." Exodus 3:4​

Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible. (I think he means the Roman Catholic Church, however it isn't our topic now)​

(*Steven:​

1- (Worldwide English [New Testament]) ​

Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' Read this verse from this version by clicking here;
2- (New Living Translation)
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"
Read this verse from this version by clicking here Steven*)

Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary: ​

For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and
for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or
for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request?

*Steven:​

Isaiah 45.17-22 [TEV=Today's English Version (TEV) or Good News Bible]:
''…It is he who says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other god. I have not spoken in secret or kept my purpose hidden... I am the LORD, and I speak the truth; I make known what is right."

"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee (the father) the only true God" (John 17:3).​

And because God is the only one who should be worshipped,​

John 4.21-34: (Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Fatherè (he said the father he didn't mention the son nor the Holy Spirit, he only mentioned the father because the father is God and God only should be worshipped). Ye worship ye know not what, we know what we worship… and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father…for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

John 8:56-59​

By:http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.html​

Question: Is the author of the Gospel of John claiming that Jesus is part of a tri-unity god when he has Jesus say, "before Abraham came into being, I am" (John 8:58)?​

Answer: John 8:56-58 states: "'Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.' The Jews therefore said to him: 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.'" ​

Trinitarians argue that the Greek words ego eimi ("I am"), allegedly spoken by Jesus (John 8:58), indicate that Jesus is God (see also John 8:24, 28). They arrive at their contention by connecting the phrase "I am" with the words spoken by God in Exodus 3:14 and often translated: "I AM THAT I AM . . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I AM has sent me to you." However, the literal and proper translation of this verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you." ​

Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John's Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14. Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus' alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi ("I am"), used by John's Jesus, is not the same as ho on ("The Being, The One Who Is"), which is used in the Septuagint's rendering of Exodus 3:14: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you."​

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Even though ho on appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus. In the Book of Revelation, also credited to John by Christian commentators, ho on appears five times (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5). ​

Significantly, in each instance, it is used as a title or designation applied to God, not Jesus. Thus: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come; and from the seven spirits who are before His throne" (Revelation 1:4). That this verse refers to God and not Jesus is seen from the following verse, which continues the greeting by now including Jesus as one of those sending greetings. Hence, John says, in verses 4 and 5, that greetings are sent by God, the seven spirits, and Jesus.​

In verse 8, John writes: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come, the Almighty'" (Revelation 1:8). This verse also speaks of God, not Jesus. In Revelation 4:8, ho on is applied to "the Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, who, as the "Lamb" referred to in Revelation 5:6-7, comes to God, who is sitting on His throne. That they are two separate entities is seen from Revelation 5:13: "To the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." In addition, ho on is applied to the "Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, in Revelation 11:17 and Revelation 16:5. That ho on in Revelation 16:5 refers to God and not Jesus can be seen from verse 7, which, referring to the subject of verses 5 and 6, states: "And I heard the altar saying: 'Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.'" These are further indications that ho on and ego eimi are not used as synonymous terms by John. In John 8:56-58, John is expounding his belief that Jesus had a prehuman existence as an angelic being in heaven. John's Jesus is proclaiming here that this prehuman existence began before Abraham was born: "Before Abraham came into being, I am." The fact of the matter is that the text does not at all indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. In no honest way can John's statement be taken to identify Jesus as God.​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

John 8:56-59
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By: Ahmad Hoosen & Osama Abdullah ©
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1- Jesus saying "I am"è Ahmad Hoosen
2- So why did the Jews try to kill Jesus for saying "I am"? Wasn't he claiming to be the Creator of the Universe? è Osama Abdullah
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1- It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)" Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God?
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How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.
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2- So why did the Jews try to kill Jesus for saying "I am"? Wasn't he claiming to be the Creator of the Universe?
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The answer to this question is in this verse:
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"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"
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The Jews are known to kill the Prophets of GOD Almighty. That's a given fact that was confirmed by Jesus peace be upon him in Matthew 23:37. Jesus doesn't have to claim to be GOD Almighty to trigger them to kill him. Him being a Prophet of GOD Almighty or claiming to be a Prophet from GOD Almighty -- that alone is enough for the Jews to attempt to kill him. Jesus did say before that he was GOD Almighty's Prophet/Messenger:
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" "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. (From the NIV Bible, John 4:34)"
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" "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:24)"
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"So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. (From the NIV Bible, John 8:28)"
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" "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (From the NIV Bible, John 14:28)"
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"Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 10:39-41)"
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"And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (From the NIV Bible, Luke 10:15-16)"
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There are a lot more verses like the ones above that I can provide that clearly prove that (1) GOD Almighty is above Jesus; and (2) Jesus is GOD Almighty's Messenger. But I believe that the above verses are sufficient enough to prove the point. So when Jesus said "I am" (different from GOD Almighty's Hebrew "I am" in the Old Testament as shown above in the first section è[1- Jesus saying "I am"è Ahmad Hoosen]), he meant to say that he was GOD Almighty's Messenger, and not GOD Almighty Himselfè*Steven: The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" + Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world When he established the heavens, I was there.” For more verses refer to posts 2 & 3.
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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John 8:58​

By: Cat Stevens​

!!!!!! ​

I don't think that Jesus was meaning this at all! Please read my five points fully firstly before giving any comments because they are correlated and interrelated.​

Firstly: (KJV) John 8:58: “before Abraham was born, I am!”​

Let's read this verse from other versions

1- (Worldwide English [New Testament]) ​

Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' Read this verse from this version by clicking here;

2- (New Living Translation)​

Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"
Read this verse from this version by clicking here

Consequently, ''I am'' couldn't be found in these two versions! Paul wrote his​

Letters before the four gospels, which were later colored and influenced by Paul’s beliefs and teachings. Can I say that they translated ''I am'' in some versions to reconcile it with the verse in Exodus?!

Secondly:​

John8.56-57:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

!!!!! Jesus was saying that Abram saw his day not he (Jesus) saw Abraham? Why did the Jews say in 57:Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?​

Can you clarify this verse to me? Or it is an addition to write the verse 58 to reconcile it with Exodus? Clarify it, please. John8.56-57:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was gladè this verse is whether an addition by the hand of men because Abraham died, or God let Abraham to see Jesus' day, God can give life to the dead creatures and he can do every thing.​

Thirdly:​

Let's read verse 55 which is before verses 56&75, John8.55:​

A- (New Living Translation)
…! But it is true--I know him and obey him. Click here to read this verse from this version

B- (Amplified Bible)​

…. But I know Him and keep His word [obey His teachings, am faithful to His message] Click

C- (Contemporary English Version)​

…. But I know him, and I do what he says. Click

D- (The Message)​

... But I do know, and I am doing what he says.Click

E- (Worldwide English (New Testament))​

…. But I know him and I obey his word.Click

F- (New Life Version)​

…. But I do know the Father and obey His Word.Click

G- (New International Reader's Version)​

…. But I do know him. And I obey his word.Click

Accordingly:​

'' I obey him'' èobey: if Jesus is God, why does he obey the God? God doesn't have to obey anyone! Others who aren't Gods should do so. Was he obeying himself [God is 3 but they are 1]? Or he was a messenger not a God so he was obeying his God as all the creatures and prophets should obey their God?

'' I do what he says '' èdo: the employee does what his boss wants and orders and says? Was Jesus then a prophet? The God send someone as a messenger or a prophet to do what he says and wants?So Jesus is a messenger and a prophet of God exactly as all the other prophets and the messengers who were before him Matthew 5.17: Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.He came to fulfill them,no one of the former prophets talked about the trinity!Could God liken himself to the prophets when he says that he came to fulfill which means to fulfill their job in conveying the message of himself! Jesus himself described himself as a prophet in Matthew 13.57, John8.55: (Amplified Bible) …. But I know Him and keep His word [obey His teachings, am faithful to His message] Click​

Fourthly:​

nope, the Jews didn't recognized this, because
1- ''I am'' couldn't be found in some other versions, as I clarified that above. Paul wrote his Letters before the four gospels, which were later colored and influenced by Paul’s beliefs and teachings. Can I say that they translated ''I am'' in some versions to reconcile it with the verse in Exodus?!

[Quote=]Misha'al ibn Abdullah: Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK.[/Quote]

2- (NLT) "I existed before Abraham was even born!'' how could Jesus be exited before Abraham's birth? If the Jews actually didn't understand what Jesus meant by this, that's why they picked up stones to stone him =( and they didn't gave him the chance to clarify so, or they understood what Jesus was meaning but they didn't want to listen more from him =( oh dear Jesus. Maybe they didn't give him the chance to clarify to emphasize to the others that this guy is blaspheming. ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

By: Cat Stevens​

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Ok, what's the problem with this? They understood him wrongly, so they accused him of blasphemy, I will clarify it more, example: (S= stevens) traveled to (A) and when he came back he told (J= Jatom): hey! Jatom, I became God in that country, God made me a God there, (J): what the heck you are saying! You are blaspheming, you started stoning me and you didn't give me a chance to explain , what I meant by: I became God in that country, God made me God thereè people there loved me and because of that they served me i.e. they did whatever I say and want, whatever I want they get it to me, so I was like God, it was a metaphor or a likening, because the true God, people love him and serve him and they do whatever he wants i.e. obey his orders and commandments, now you get it? Accordingly: you were stoning me for blasphemy while in fact you misunderstood me , maybe the Jews at the time deliberately didn't give Jesus a chance to clarify what he meant sometimes, and when Jesus can't clarify then others will believe the Jews, that Jews' Judge and view were right regarding Jesus that Jesus was truly blaspheming =(, and when you said that:​

Theydid this because stoning was the punishment for blasphemy (Lev. 24:16)And he that blasphemeth the nameof the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death, now let's read the following verse and please concentrate, ​

John 10.32:Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? è (Didn't Jesus know the Law of Moses? That stoning should be for he who blasphemes the name of the Lord? That means that the stoning wasn't only for this reason you can stone someone to make him go away to avoid hurt, keep readingèThe Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. And I will add Deuteronomy 13. 6-9:If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, ....And thou shalt stone him with stones... however, what does blasphemy mean?Oxford:blasphemy n. (pl. -ies) 1 irreverent talk or treatment of a religious or sacred thing. 2 instance of this. Longman dictionary: something you say or do that is insulting God or people's religious beliefsèJews believe that Abraham was born before Jesus' existence, but Jesus said that he was exited even before Abraham was born! They didn't understand Jesus' real meaning which I already clarified it, and if you are still insistent that they stoned him because they understood that he was meaning I AM THAT I AM then:​

John 8.57: (New Living Translation) 57The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"59At that point they picked up stones to kill him. But Jesus hid himself from them and left the Temple.​

(Worldwide English (New Testament)) The Jewish leaders said to him, `You are not fifty years old yet. How could Abraham see you?' 58Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' 59Then they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus got out of their way. He left the temple and they did not know where he went. ​

So, if the reason of stoning him was because they understood him as you said: then I can't find this concept from these two versions, so I will conclude that they don't stone only for such a reason, and if I will not conclude such a conclusion then,​

John8.56-57:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? ​

!!!!! Jesus was saying that Abram saw his day not he (Jesus) saw Abraham? Why did the Jews ask then in 57:Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou(Jesus) seen Abraham? We find huge faults in these two verses? Jesus said that Abraham saw his day but the Jews said how you saw Abraham! Jesus didn't clarify by saying: no I didn't say that I saw Abraham I said he saw my day! But instead of saying so he Jesus directly answered them!! This is probably an addition to write verse 58 to reconcile it with Exodus? Read and concentrate John8.56-57:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad, and if these two verses are additions by the hand of men then it goes without saying that verses 58 and 59 are additions too!!!!!!!!!! If I am wrong then clarify, and thank you before hand.​

I will tell you something, I swear by Allah the almighty that Jesus peace be upon him will return someday, so then, go and ask him if he is God?​

John 8.32:And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.​

"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee (the father) the only true God" (John 17:3).​

And because God is the only one who should be worshipped, ​

John 4.21-34: (Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Fatherè[ Look he say the father and Jesus is the Son, and father and son are metaphors click 1 & 2]Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: … and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.This verse is enough to know the truth, O Dear Allah Dear Father, witness that I told him.​

Dear Jatom if I am right, then please return to the father before it is too late =( ​

Exodus 3.14-15:And Godè (the father is the speaker not Jesus the son) said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you….​

Let me explain these verses according to my understanding from it and tell me if I am wrong,​

I AM THAT I AMè is one of God's names, actually God the father has many names e.g. 'Eloah- 'Adhon, 'Adhonay- Yahweh etcèThis kind of God's names is called the ''PERSONAL NAMES OF GOD'', as well I AM THAT I AM it is one of his names, I AM THAT I AM, Yahweh Tsebha'oth, Qanna' etcèThis kind of God's names is called the ''DESCRIPTIVE NAMES OF GOD''​

Please click here if you want to know more other names and you'll find his name '' I AM THAT I AM '' in number 9​

We Muslims have such thing too regarding Allah's names, However when I say '' I love God'' = '' I love Yahweh''= '' I love I AM THAT I AM'' but the difference between them is that I chose different names of his majesty, so accordingly let's apply "Yahweh'' on the above verses:​

And Yahweh said unto Moses, Yahweh: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh hath sent meè (refers to Moses) unto you.And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahwehthe God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you….​

(KJV) John 8:58:“before Abraham was born, I am!”​

I am= Jesus, when I say: I am here = Stevens is here, the concept remains the same, so accordingly, we can understand this verse this way: “before Abraham was born, Jesus is!”è i.e. ''Jesus is, before Abraham was born'' is=be=existed.​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

John 8:56-59​

By:Shahid Bin Waheed​

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Before any claim from the Trinitarians is even considered debatable, we must examine what the early Church fathers of Christianity have said about John 8:58! Let us examine some reference, which are inconsistent as we notice.​

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John 8:58 - NIV, NAB - in Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians​

And how, again, could such an one declare: "Before Abraham was, I am?”​

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*John 8:58 - NIV, NAB- in Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV ​

But the Word of God did not accept of the friendship of Abraham, as though He stood in need of it, for He was perfect from the beginning ("Before Abraham was," He says, "I am"​

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**John 8:58 - NIV, NAB- in Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus​

And as He was the son of David, so was He also the Lord of David. And as He was from Abraham, so did He also exist before Abraham.​

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John 8:58 - NIV, NAB - in Origen Against Celsus Book VIII​

for we believe Himself when He says, "Before Abraham was, I am."​

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John 8:58 - NIV, NAB - in A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity​

But although it is not possible to maintain that one who is himself mortal can make another immortal, yet this word of Christ not only sets forth, but affords immortality: certainly He is not man only who gives immortality, which if He were only man He could not give; but by giving divinity by immortality, He proves Himself to be God by offering divinity, which if He were not God He could not give. If Christ was only man, how did He say, "Before Abraham was, I Am?"​

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John 8:58 - NIV, NAB - in Pseudo-Gregory Thaumaturgus Twelve Topics on the Faith​

How could it be said that the Son of God who is before the ages, and He who has appeared in these last times, are different, when the Lord Himself says, "Before Abraham was, I am; "​

**It must be interesting to point out that Jesus flatly repudiated the Jews when he asked them: “How could David call him- ‘my Lord” if he were his son?” The following verses from the Gospel of Matthew are evidence that Jesus is not the one whom David is calling “my Lord.”​

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Matthew 22:41! While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 22: 42Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? They say unto him, the son of David.22: 43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,22:44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?22:45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?22: 46And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.​

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Top Ten List According to Bible Rejecting Jesus’ Divinity!​

1.Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."[This confirms that Jesus preached to worshipOne and OnlyGod, not trinity.]*Steven: Does God have a God? (Our Godis one Lordè our points that it is Jesus' God too?)​

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2.John 20:17 Jesus saidI ascend to my God and your God. [Jesus has a God according to him; we know that God can’t have a God?]​

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3.John 8:28 Jesus said, "I do nothing of myself” [Can a God be this dependant?]​

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4. John 14:28 Jesus said, "My Father (GOD) is greater than I am" [So, how can Jesus himself be a God?]*Steven, that means they (3 Gods) aren't equal.​

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5.Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit" [God does not have spirit like Jesus did.]*Steven, God is eternal, doesn't die? Jesus died on the cross according to Christians? (Deuteronomy 33: 27)the eternalGod is thy refugeEternal adj. existing always; without an end or (usu.) beginning + If they are 3 but one, does that mean they have one spirit too! If so!!!!!!!!!Forget it, (KJV I Corinthians 14:33)For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace​

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6.Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows. [Or Jesus was lying to his followers, if he was God?] *Steven: God is All-knowing + that means they (3 Gods) aren't equal. How are they one then?​

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7. John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he couldn’t do a single thing of his own. [When a God became this helpless?]​

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8. John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice. [Or Jesus was lying again here, if he was God?] *Steven: that means that: "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn.14:9)is a metaphor + 3 but 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!​

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9.Luke 5:16 Jesus prays to God. [… if Jesus was God, then why he is praying to God? Since when and how a God has a God?] *Steven: if they are 3 but one? They he was praying to himself? Otherwise, somebody should clarify the concept of this triune God! (KJV I Corinthians 14:33)For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace​

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10. Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD like Muslims do. [How would you explain this from the very Bible?]​

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CHECKMATE WITH: John 17:3 and the Only True God! “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (God the father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”​

Notice: That the top ten list contains explicit verses and/or words uttered by Jesus himself. Unlike John 8:58, which is vague, ambiguous and implicit verse. I also ask Trinitarians to produce the original verse in original language it was allegedly inspired to verify for authenticity and correctness of meaning? That is why we also we that early Church fathers of Christianity don’t agree to each other.​

Beside the facts cited above exposing the myth and falsehood perpetrated by Christians using John 8:58, I must present following undeniable proof from “Proverb and Jeremiah” against this … claim showing “I am” is no more than an ordinary I am and/or you are. The following shows that all mankind was created even before earth and heaven, therefore, nothing special about Jesus as falsely claimed by Christians.​

Proverbs 8:22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 8:023 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 008:024 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 008:025 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 008:026 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 008:027 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: ​

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Jeremiah 001:004 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 001:005 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. ​

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Also a blind man referred to himself as "I am" in Jn.9: 9: ​

Paul said, "By the grace of God, I AM WHAT I AM" (1 Cor.15: 10). ​

Are these two gods as well?​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

John 8:56-59
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When Prophet Moses asked God; what was His name? What shall he say to his people? From behind the Burning Bush God replied; "I AM THAT I AM." God also asked Moses to say to the sons of Israel: "I AM hath sent me unto you." Exodus 3:14.
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When confronted by Jews; "Jesus said unto them, `Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58 K.J.V.). Jesus also said; "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24, K.J.V.). Does that not prove, Jesus existed before his birth; he was the One who spoke to Moses from behind the Burning Bush; and if you do not believe that, you will die in your sins?
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This question is based upon a simple conjecture. Even the editors of K.J.V. insinuate that fact. Under the foot note of Exodus 3:14 the editors write; "Jesus probably alluded to this name of God in John 8:58, `Before Abraham was, I AM." The use of phrase "probably alluded" clearly indicates it is not an established reality. My dear friend, a surmise can never take place of (replace) an acknowledged statement. This is what Jesus said; "...I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." (John 8:28). God of Moses that claimed "I AM THAT I AM" had no instructor or tutor, and, needed no tutoring. If God had an instructor or an educator, then what would you call that entity? God's mentor or boss??
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As for the existence of Jesus before his birth, please remember Jesus was anointed by God before he was born. Hence, he was called Christ (Messiah). Besides Jesus, there were others who were either
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Anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (See Ps.89:20, Is.45:1 , Is.61:1 , 1 Sam.24:6 * and Jer.1:5)
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God did take a solemn covenant from Novah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus - son of Mary, and Muhammad before they were sent, reveals the Qur'an. Bible records, God came to prophet Jeremiah and said to him; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5.
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I have question for you. How would you explain this ensuing statement? Jesus said to Jews; "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad." (John 8:56)
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Hot Tip
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When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind beggar who had been healed by
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Jesus, the blind beggar – who was no more blind, kept saying; ''I am [he]'' John9:9 / John 9:9(WYC)
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And (K.J.V.). Does that make the blind beggar, God! Further more, the beggar when questioned about Jesus who had healed him, replied to Jews; "And he said, "He is a prophet." (John 9:17).
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*Steven: God isn't prophet.
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…That the world may believe that you have sent me [John17.21]. Could a God be a prophet of a Godè (a prophet of himself!) at the same time? Jesus himself stated that he is a prophet [Mark, 6.4] each messenger is a prophet of God at the same time ,the messenger is a person who carries a message from someone to someone else and all messengers carried massages from God (revelation), that you have sent me, sentè send: send a message or something so he is a messenger! IF Jesus is God, Could a God be a messenger of himself at the same time? E.g. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah i.e. Muhammad is the messenger of God, if Jesus is God I can say: Jesus is the messenger of God i.e. God is the messenger of God? God doesn’t need to call himself (God Jesus) a prophet or a messenger; because he came by himself he didn't send a messenger! If I send you a book by my friend (John) john is the messenger, but if I [myself] come to you I can't say that I am the messenger? Or I sent me to you? I shouldn't use ''sent'' at all! So Jesus is a messenger and prophet of God exactly as all the prophets and messengers who were before him Matthew 5.17: Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. He came to fulfill them, no one of the past prophets talked about the trinity! Could a god liken himself to the prophets when he says that he came to fulfill which means to fulfill their job in conveying his message! Who convey the message? The messengers, God isn't a messenger nor a prophet, he has never described himself with such things.
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"... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)
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Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. (John 12:44) For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. (John 12:49)
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"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee (the father) the only true God" (John 17:3).
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And because God is the only one who should be worshipped,
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John 4.21-34: (Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Fatherè (he said the father he didn't mention the son nor the Holy Spirit, he only mentioned the father because the father is God and God only should be worshipped). Ye worship ye know not what, we know what we worship… and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father…for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
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Yours Sincerely,
​

Cat Stevens
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Catstevens,

Your avenue of attack is floods of information, loaded with different color.

Great writers can write very little, yet present all the info they intend to share.

Anyone can lay out a book, but can you paraphrase points that the reading covers?

For example, I could send you hundreds of books that state that Christianity is the

true religion, likewise you could send me books that support your faith. But when you

debate people look for the facts and not so much novel that by the way hurts their

eyes to read. Just a suggestion : )

 

JesusDiedForU
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Yup
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As I stated in post#1: I already commented on this verse in my thread [Is God 1 or 3? ]
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However, let's see other opinions, (I will add to them too)
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Actually each one of the writers is focusing on a different thing by explaining it in details regarding (John 8:56-59)
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Post #2: is focusing on the pre-existence of Jesus
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Post #3: is focusing on I AM
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Post #4: I AM THAT I AM
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Post #5: why did the Jews try to kill Jesus for saying "I am"? Wasn't he claiming to be the Creator of the Universe?
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Post #6 & 7: by me =) is focusing on: the verses 55- 57 + why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Jesus? (Different answer from post#5) + The translation of verse 85 and simplifying Exodus 3.14-15.
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Post#8: is focusing on the pre-existence of Jesus (Different from post#2)
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Post#9: the opinion of the editors of K.J.V.
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See, I thought I have to post them all =)
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Each color points to something, e.g.:
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J è Pay attention
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J è Verses
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J è Quote
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And so on =), if you read a Quote and in the following day you wanted to refer to it, you can find it easily, right =)
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Very true, I can give you a summary if you want, but you know, as I experienced too, many people misunderstand you or don't get the point especially if there are ordinary people, and if a non-Christian read it perhaps he won't understand what's going on! I want everybody to understand. And as you saw: each one of the writers is focusing on a different thing by explaining it in details regarding (John 8:56-59) if I only talked about the pre-existence of Jesus maybe the others want the explanation of I AM? So, I posted all of them =) everyone will get what he is looking for without asking me so =)
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As I said: each one of the writers is focusing on a different thing by explaining it in details regarding (John 8:56-59) do you want me to summarize them all or only the pre-existence of Jesus or I AM or why did the Jews wanted to stone him …. It is really better to read them, myself I like reading =)
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Sadly, some people don't mind to read voluminous books regarding things they like to read about, but when it comes to the religion, faith, God, things they dislike to read about because they don't care or the have a different belief etc ….you know, if someone is looking for the truth, then he should do his best, not waiting for the truth to come to him? Some issues need to be discussed in details, but yeah, it depends on the person (seeker) his age, his scholarship, his sincerity (is he really looking for the truth) etc.
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Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
​

Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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Still at it I see...

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No, the conclusion drawn is that Jesus claimed to have existed prior to His existence on Earth. There's a difference here. The argument is not saying that Jesus existed before His existence on earth therefore He is God. Instead, the argument is saying that Jesus claimed to have pre-existence, and also claimed to be God, which puts Him in the category of a blasphemer. And if He was a blasphemer, then it is nonsense to speak of Him as a prophet.​

Says who? If so, then you're refering to the wrong argument since the conclusion of the argument isn't that Jesus is God, rather that He claimed to be God.​

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Jeremaih 1:4-5 is refering to preordination. John 8:58 is not. The two passages aren't even the same style of writing. ​

This passage refers to Wisdom not Solomon. This is dealing with Wisdom Christology and the pre-existence Christ, not Solomon. ​

Ok, you have got kidding me. This is called sarcasm. Just read Job 38:1-5 as an example:​

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1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, ​

2"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?

But who uses it as evidence of His divinity? We only point out that He claimed to be divine and therefore He could not be a prophet. ​

Ok, now can you show this to be the case? ​

 

Jatom
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Did you read all posts? Yes or no?
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Post #2: is focusing on the pre-existence of Jesus
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Post #3: is focusing on I AM
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Post #4: I AM THAT I AM Post #5: why did the Jews try to kill Jesus for saying "I am"? Wasn't he claiming to be the Creator of the Universe?
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Post #6 & 7: by me =) is focusing on: the verses 55- 57 + why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Jesus? (Different answer from post#5) + The translation of verse 85 and simplifying Exodus 3.14-15.
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Post#8: is focusing on the pre-existence of Jesus (Different from post#2)
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Post#9: the opinion of the editors of K.J.V.
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Never.
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NO. Jesus isn't blasphemer; he is The Christ the Messiah, the prophet and the messenger of Allah, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and he will return someday.
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John 1:1
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By: Shahid Bin Waheed ©
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John KJV reads:
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1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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Let us read like this!
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1:1In the beginning was the Wisdom, and the Wisdom was with God, and the Wisdom was God.
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Before you wonder that why I did that? Let me inform you that I didn’t, it was a German scholar by the name of “Manfred Barthel” who wrote a book in German under title “Was Wirklich in der Bibel Steht” in 1924. This book has been translated into English by Mark Howson under the title “What the Bible Really Says.” I have the 1984 edition in my possession that was published by Bell Publishing Company, distributed by Crown Publishers, Inc. by arrangement with William Morrow & Company, Inc. ISBN 0-517-460025.
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The author Manfred Barthel said on Page 345 3rd paragraph that I quote:
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Substitute “wisdom” for “the Word” (the Greek logos means both), and the meaning is very clear: God’s wisdom created all things and God existed even before “the beginning” in which the heavens and earth were created.
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Jatom will answer this:
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??????? ???????
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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Well, my problem here is that the argument you're advancing in the post I responsed to isn't a Christian argument, but a Muslim strawman. The argument isn't that Christ said He pre-existed therefore He must be God. Instead the argument is that Christ claimed not only to pre-exist, but also to be God; therefore if He isn't really God, then He is a blasphemer and not a prophet.​

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Well, no I don't wonder why you did this, logos can just as easily be translated "wisdom." Logos denotes the outwad form by which the inward thought is expressed. Wisdom is personified in the Old Testemant. Wisdom simply refers to God's Wisdom which is personified as Christ. ​

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Answer what, you didn't ask a question.

 

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No kidding. But if He is claiming to be God, then by very implication, He is claiming that He is worty of worship. ​

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Right, but He didn't only claim to have exsisted before Abraham, He claimed the I AM name of God.​

You mean, what then should we say about Wisdom. ​

Read the full context. Why does Hebrews 7:3 claim this? Answer: Becuase he is without geneology.​

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Preordination is not the same as pre-existence. Set aside from that, the only passage I can see that is relavent to his case here is Jer 1:5, and even then, one must make use of bad translation skills in order to make it work. I mean, does he even take into consideration that Jer 1:5 is poetry?​

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Context! Some neighbors of the begger ask if he was the man who used to sit and beg (John 9:8) and the begger answers "I am he." And he thinks that this is the samething as when the Jews asked Jesus how he saw Abraham and He answered "before Abraham was, I AM"? ​

No, instead we have a VERY clear example of Misha'al ibn Abdullah's bible twisting methods. I suppose that next he'll want to claim that everytime someone in the bible used the words "I am" he or she was claiming to be God! Or perhaps everytime I use the words "I am" I'm claiming to be God? ​

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Correct, this is New Testament Greek not English! Look at verse 8. I wonder if he knows that when it say's "...who previously saw him as a begger" the word "him" is not really there? Or look at verse 7. Does he know that "him" and "he" aren't really there either? This is very basic stuff. ​

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As have many others, but none have used them in the same context that Jesus did. And if they did, then they must either be blasphemers or God. ​

Does this make me the incarnate of God since I've used the words "I am" as well? And more importantly, does it make Jesus the incarnate of God simply because He used the words? ​

The Pharisees were disputing over whether Jesus was a man of God or not, and the begger affirmed tha He was from God "He is a Prophet"

Then either the begger was right, or he was mistaken. You seem to think that the begger was infallible, or at least in this regard.​

Just as they choose to add the words "he" and "him" in previous verses.

There's nothing in the passage to imply that "he" is needed, not to mention it wouldn't make any sense!​

What about "I and the father are One" or "before Abraham was I AM"? Or what about Him claiming prerogatives of God, like the ability to forgive sins?

I would say that rather the opposite is true.​

No kidding. It's just too bad that Misha'al ibn Abdullah lacks any interperatation and hermeneutical skills himself.

Well one's Greek and ones Hebrew if that's what he means. But that's like saying "yo quiero" and "I want" are two different phases. Well no kidding! One's Spanish and the other's English!​

No, "ego" is translated "I" not "eimi"​

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I would love to see the Misha'al ibn Abdullah translation of the bible which, according to what he's written so far, would render this passage something like, "And much distressed began everyone them and said them lord I am."​

Ironically enough, I was only joking when I said, "I suppose that next he'll want to claim that everytime someone in the bible used the words "I am" he or she was claiming to be God!" but it looks as if my prediction may in fact be true!

I would ask that anyone who is actually serious, read the full context of the passage and decide if that would even make any sense. I mean, let me get this straight, Jesus tells the disciple that one will betray Him, and the disciples who were very destressed by this and wondering who it was He was talking about, suddenly say, "I am" which we are to interpret here as, "I am God"? ​

Well, considering that merely a paraphase of what Jesus says that not really what He said. What He said was "before Abraham was, I AM!" ​

*Steven: The New American Bible wrote the following as a footnote: ​

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And?​

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The Moffatt Bible is a paraphrase that even changes the order of some verses to make it easier to read. The goal of this bible is clarity not accuracy. Using this as an authority on John 8:58 is like using childrens books as an authoritative source for scientific theories.​

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LOL, I was right!​

Oh really? And where's the evidence for this? ​

Both of these versions are paraphrases. Now it he want's to make the case that these version are more accurate then, say, the NASB he'll be hard pressed. I sure that even the authors of these two versions would disagree!

If God is worthy of worship, and Jesus is God, then Jesus is worthy of worship.​

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Oh? say's who?​

 

Jatom
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He didn't claim so! HE IS NOT A BLASPHEMER
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Wisdom is personified in the Old Testament / God's Wisdom which is personified as Christ.
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So you mean that wisdom isn't personified as Solomon as Bilal Philips thinks so but personified as Christ?
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I don't wonder why you did thisè when you wrote that I remembered Shahid Bin Waheed's Article concerning John1:1
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1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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“Manfred Barthel” who wrote a book in German under title “Was Wirklich in der Bibel Steht” The author Manfred Barthel said on Page 345 3rd paragraph that I quote:
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Substitute “wisdom” for “the Word” (the Greek logos means both), and the meaning is very clear: God’s wisdom created all things and God existed even before “the beginning” in which the heavens and earth were created.
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1:1In the beginning was the Wisdom and the Wisdom was with God, and the Wisdom was God.
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Proverbs 8:
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Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?..."The LORD brought meè (the speaker is the wisdom as you said) forth as the first of his works è (In the beginning was the Wisdom, so maybe Manfred Barthel was right in his translation for this verse that it should be translated to wisdom not to word ) , before his deeds of old…
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Ok, you lost me dude, again, concentrate
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Jatom: But who uses it as evidence of His divinity?
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Catstevens: Jatom will answer this: Jatom: Ok, you have got kidding meè I quoted this you said it, i.e. this is my answer to your qè who uses it as evidence of His divinity? (Instead of typing, my answer was the same of what you said è Ok, you have got kidding me, so, I said let Jatom answer this?)
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You get it? If not, forget it man!
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Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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"Before Abraham was, I AM!" <--- This is what Christ said. And please do not revert back to the NLT or other paraphrases for this passage.

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Not in the passage you mention.​

God's Wisdom=Jesus. John 1:14 says, "and the Word/Wisdom became flesh" which is refering to Jesus. So if Wisdom/Word=Jesus then we could simply substitute "God's Wisdom" for "Jesus" in the paragraph above: "...and the meaning is very clear: Jesus created all things and God existed even before "the beginning" in which the heavens and earth were created." And this is in perfect agreement with later passages like Hebrews 1:2 which says, "in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." In ancient jewish literature Wisdom is personified. Take, for example, Proverbs 1:24-28 which says, "Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech: "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you. But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you-- when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. "Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me."​

Even if Manfred is right, where does that get us? I mean, what's your point?​

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Well consider it forgotten​

Later!​

 

Jatom

As you said, if he is claiming to be so…did he? Nope.

According to Islam, my soul, Jesus' soul, all human beings' souls were existed before Abraham was born! Are we all Gods?

Dr. Bilal Philips: In the Qur‘aan God informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world. ​

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When your Lord gathered all of Aadam’s descendants and made them bear witness for themselves, saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They all replied: Yes indeed, we bear witness. That is what Jesus was talking about I think. before giving any comments on this please read post# 28 first. section, ONE MORE THING​

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Posts 3,4,5,6 and 7 for a summary read post 4 ==> BTW:I copied post 4 in post 19

Hebrews 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, I think he (Misha'al ibn Abdullah) meant thisè without beginning of days or end of life, many people don't have genealogy (foundling) are they without beginning of days or end of life as well? Did I misunderstand you?​

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…………….Ok, No comment.​

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Well, it isn't the word of God then? I.e. who wrote it wasn't inspired by God? The speaker isn't God?​

The following crossed my mind​

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I prefer you read the articles my responses fully then give comments, I think it is better, if you're not doing this. however,
When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind beggar who had been healed by Jesus, the blind beggar – who was no more blind, kept saying; ''I am [he]''' He is like to him; ' he himself said,--' I am [he].'"John9:9 /John 9:9(WYC) è (these are two links) John9:9 /John 9:9(WYC) ==> these are links And (K.J.V.)==> the same I am he but without brackets.


Why do you think then, they put it (he) between brackets.do you think that the editors may have supplied "I am [he]" to make it grammatically correct.? Q; (please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.)
Does that make the blind beggar, God! Further more, the beggar when questioned about Jesus who had healed him, replied to Jews; "And he said, "He is a prophet." (John 9:17).

I think he was showing how Christians are twisting the methods =)

See, can you see the double standards here? I mean, if Jesus said that he is the son of God, Christians take it literally but when another prophet said so, no this is a metaphor? It is the same here? The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same.
Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"?
read post 4 Jews' comment, by the way I already copied their answer in the next post. and please read post 28

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​

 

Jatom​

hahaha see, sadly you are joking at yourself. See how pathetic laughable twist you (Christians) use to prove his divinity.

John9:17: Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet."

He was right; Jesus himself said that he is a prophet.

Don't you believe that Jesus was a prophet?

Well, There's nothing in the passage to imply that "I AM" is referred to Exodus, not to mention it (AM) by using I was existed , I have existed instead of AM would make more sense! =)

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''I and my Father are one'' (John 10:30) Doesn't point to Jesus' divinityè (link)

I already discussed this with you in [Is God 1 or 3] thread but yeah, maybe I will make it in new thread again to read other opinions just like this thread but someday.

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Q: Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same.
Question: Is the author of the Gospel of John claiming that Jesus is part of a tri-unity god when he has Jesus say, "before Abraham came into being, I am" (John 8:58)?
Answer: By: http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.htmlTrinitarians argue that the Greek words ego eimi ("I am"), allegedly spoken by Jesus (John 8:58), indicate that Jesus is God (see also John 8:24, 28). They arrive at their contention by connecting the phrase "I am" with the words spoken by God in Exodus 3:14 and often translated: "I AM THAT I AM . . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I AM has sent me to you." However, the literal and proper translation of this verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you."

Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John's Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14. Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus' alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi ("I am"), used by John's Jesus, is not the same as ho on ("The Being, The One Who Is"), which is used in the Septuagint's rendering of Exodus 3:14: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you."​

Even though ho on appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus. In the Book of Revelation, also credited to John by Christian commentators, ho on appears five times (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5). ​

Significantly, in each instance, it is used as a title or designation applied to God, not Jesus. Thus: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come; and from the seven spirits who are before His throne" (Revelation 1:4). That this verse refers to God and not Jesus is seen from the following verse, which continues the greeting by now including Jesus as one of those sending greetings. Hence, John says, in verses 4 and 5, that greetings are sent by God, the seven spirits, and Jesus.​

In verse 8, John writes: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come, the Almighty'" (Revelation 1:8). This verse also speaks of God, not Jesus. In Revelation 4:8, ho on is applied to "the Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, who, as the "Lamb" referred to in Revelation 5:6-7, comes to God, who is sitting on His throne. That they are two separate entities is seen from Revelation 5:13: "To the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." In addition, ho on is applied to the "Lord God, the Almighty," not Jesus, in Revelation 11:17 and Revelation 16:5. That ho on in Revelation 16:5 refers to God and not Jesus can be seen from verse 7, which, referring to the subject of verses 5 and 6, states: "And I heard the altar saying: 'Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.'" These are further indications that ho on and ego eimi are not used as synonymous terms by John. In John 8:56-58, John is expounding his belief that Jesus had a prehuman existence as an angelic being in heaven. John's Jesus is proclaiming here that this prehuman existence began before Abraham was born: "Before Abraham came into being, I am." The fact of the matter is that the text does not at all indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. In no honest way can John's statement be taken to identify Jesus as God.​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​

 

Jatom​

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The writer is saying if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows: "And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"​

When Jess said, before Abraham was born, I am, we cannot interpret it here as "I am God" or refer it to Exodus, otherwise do this to all who said: I Am in the bible! How pathetic.​

"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am." Exodus 3:4​

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read post#

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Relevant link Jesus isn't God? Who is saying that?

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Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style, ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​