just had to read some marx

not a lot, simply one chapter from the manifesto.

i've read it in its entirety, but it was years ago and i only understood most of it, i think today i would understand it a bit better.

his writing, due to the subject matter, time period, and his style, is rather dense. but intrigueing.

i think he was a smart man. and i think that in the context of the time period, he probably really hit the nail on the head in many cases. in some, i think he was wrong.

in today's world, though, i think the bulk of his suggestions are antiquated and obsolete. i still feel much of it has some merit, but its not the same world.

not that the workers aren't still being exploited, but the bourgeoisie seems to have at least somewhat realized the importance of human capital and that marx's ideas were at least somewhat valid. i feel they have taken steps to at least alleviate the suffering of the working classes to the point where violent uprising and an overthrow of the system is entirely unlikely.

i also believe they have skillfully manipulated general culture to a point where revolution is the furthest thing from most people's minds, at least within the majority of industrialized countries. if religion once was the opiate of the masses, now it is religion, empty political puppet-theaters and rhetoric, mass media in the form of popular television, cinema, music and news [and formerly also books], and, well, drugs.

while i do feel there is still a good deal of exploitation, things such as weekends, restrictions on working hours, slightly increased wages, mandatory public education for all children, taxpayer money supporting better sanitation, parks and free recreation, paid sick days, and so on, have helped to alleviate much of the suffering. but the rest is still just numbed with the so-called "opiate of the masses."

i think his ideas would be impractical and unrealistic in this day and age, mostly because i dont think the conditions of the workers are -as- bad in general as they were in his own time. but i do think he was a clever man certainly, and that he should get more credit than he currently receives.


i should offer the caveat that all the above is written while i'm tired, and from the viewpoint of someone who has only ever lived in the united states. i can't claim knowledge of working conditions in other countries, or in all fields.

so what are your thoughts?

 

Karl Marx is actually a genius writer. If you don't appreciate his views, you've got to at least give him praise for the way he presents his logic.

 

certainly. i think when i have more time i shall go back and reread more of his stuff.

actually, i have a book of engels that i bought used for cheap a few years ago and never got around to reading. Socialism: Utopian and Scientific

i definitely do not agree with the entirety of marx's theories, but i do feel he was very intelligent, and at the time dead on in most cases. i just dont think its practical any longer, but i do feel certain elements of socialism, within a somewhat capitalist framework, is probably the best route to go. i think a strong resistance to such thinking by americans (i.e. joseph mcarthy) has hurt america on the whole. there is a reason the us is doing so poorly on the whole these days as a people. lots of it has to do with fighting systems that would improve the lives of all americans. i think much of our troubles would be alleviated if we were more open to these types of ideas.

the united states is among the richest and most industrialized nations in the world, yet we suffer more than most comparable countries. poorer healthcare for the majority, poorer education, poorer working conditions, much larger percentage of the population is literally imprisoned, and so on. it seems to me many of the typical "american" problems could be fixed if we weren't so bent on a cash-driven consumer oriented lifestyle, but focused more on the quality of life of our people and the greater good of the whole.

 

It's in doubt that Marx even wrote the Manifesto, as what he outlines within was merely a rehashing of what Adam Weishaupt put forward a century earlier. We know Marx was employed by the Rothschild bankers, and it's rather ironic how almost every plank written in the manifesto can be found within today's supposedly "capitalist" society.

 

The Weishaupt theory doesn't hold water, and the rest of what you've just said doesn't make sense. The entire Manifesto is a critique of the Capitalist Class System. So, yeah, the planks can be found today because that's the kind of Social Structure we have today.

 

It might not make sense to you. And what do you mean "Weishaupt theory." What theory?

A critique of the capitalist class system? Right. That's why the bankers who gave us capitalism, also funded socialism and communism to be the false opposition to capitalism in the dialectic scheme.

Almost every plank of Marx's manifesto has been fulfilled or is in the process of being fulfilled.

 

This thread is going to be something else.

And I expect Karl Marx to be turning in his grave until it dies a death-

So far I agree with Ari, though I think Das Kapital is the real Marx.

 

I thought you didn't like to use "isms" to describe political ideologies. Anyway, why don't you tell me and everyone else your theory on Weishaupt being used as something Marx had stolen from him.

Because, you're basically saying something along the lines of say, Galileo stole all of his scientific material from Copernicus. Which isn't at all true.

Give MacGyver a paperclip, and he can make an airplane. But that doesn't mean whoever gave him a paperclip made an airplane.

 

marx sucks, communism sucks

free minds and free markets please

that is all

 

You see what the free markets have done for you lately?

 

No, I don't apply those labels to myself is what I said...

Anyway, some people may find this interesting.

This was an actual report put out by the California State Senate Investigating Committee on Education in 1952...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10500329@N02/2904063952/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10500329@N02/2903219813/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10500329@N02/2904064166/

 

Do you feel better, now?

 

I know a dude that reads kapital in german and translates it to english over and over again .... for fun.

 

Lady we haven't had anything close to free markets in almost a century, don't confuse laissez faire with corporatism or crony capitalism please, Fannie and Freddie are pets of the State.

 

Haha. That's funny. So it's okay to use them, as long as nobody applies them to yourself? That's cute.

 

Everytime i say it

during comfest it's fun to watch all the depressed pinkos at the commie booth trying to hawk their copy of Mao's little red book and no one is remotely interested, I like to shout at them "thats what happens when we get a choice you boot-licking robots!", fun for all

 

Communism exists. Socialism exists. I do not embrace these labels and I understand that capitalism and socialism are simply two seperate ends of the same dialectical control mechanism. Can I be anymore clear in what I am saying, or should I try speaking in tongues?

 

By "state" do you mean the Rockefellers?

No, the Mellons? The Scaifes? The Windsors?

William Buffet? George Soros?

And their little hedge-funds and financial monoliths? And their printing press (The Fed)?

 

You could answer my previous remarks about your views on Weishaupt. Or not, I still think your views on Marx are a tad off kilter. But if you want to dance, I'll get my shoes.