my somewhat educated guess as to the long term dangers of RCs + psychs in general

let me start by saying that i'm no expert in pharmacology or neurobiology, but i'm fairly well educated in related fields like molecular cell biology and biochem. most of the information i've used to make my "conclusions" comes from searching the web and is confirmed from what i can recall from my neurobiology and cell biology courses and textbooks.
honestly most of this shit is on wikipedia if you browse it long enough, and i know it's not the most reliable source, but it's backed up by legitamate textbooks.

by psychedelics i am refering to non edogenous chemicals that bind to and affect signaling at the 5HT2 receptor - a serotonin receptor distributed throughout the body and in the brain where the effects we seek occur.

all classical pychedelics activate the 5HT2A receptor (including LSD, psilocin, and mescaline), as well as most RCs (2cb, 5meodmt, DMT, DOM) - MDMA activates 5HT2B which has similar consequences.
activating the receptor has a plethora of effects.
some of which increase certain second messengers in the brain (IP3 and DAG) that increase calcium levels, which has influence on cell proliferation and cell death. defects in such pathways are KNOWN to be linked to cancer - if you proliferate too much, or don't die (you are a cell in this sentence), you can become cancerous.

so last night this is freaking me out...
but then i thought today, as humans we are constantly affecting brain chemisty, some people take sripts that do some of the same shit just at different receptors in the brain and other parts of the body. i should mention 5ht2 is also located:

• Blood Vessels
• Central Nervous System
• GI Tract
• Platelets
• Peripheral nervous system
• Smooth Muscle

so there can be harmful effecs at these locations too - hence nausea, cardiac effects, etc.

but back to what i was saying above, some people fuck with their brain chemistry daily with scripts. so maybe tripping every now and then isn't too bad.

it all depends on if these effects are permanent, or revese themeselves pretty quickly after the drug becomes diminished in your system. and with acid and others that is likely since acid has a half life of something like 5 hours i believe.
so some of us prob would agree that you can trip too much, and that is probalby b/c these effects become more and more permanent if you are constatnly tripping..the more time you take off, the more "normal" you become.

i guess this is scaring me a bit, b/c i don't wanna end up with brain cancer or cancer in my GI tract...but it seems reasonalbe to think that if you trip once in awhile, the signalling just goes back to normal after the drug leaves. but with prolonged use, you may have a permanent or long term affect on your signaling that controls cell growth.

so i'm gonna set a personal limit of tripping 4 times a year i think sounds good. once per season. that way i can hopefully stay healthy well into my old age, but continue to use some of the substances we all love so much.

another converstaion to have would be to discuss the psychedelic effects of these drugs - i mean in depth like this. the location of the receptors in certain areas of the brain - the neocortex involved in higher functions such as sensory perception, generation of motor commands, spatial reasoning, conscious thought and, in humans, language, mainly the prefontal cortex (part of the neo-) which deals with:
This brain region has been implicated in planning complex cognitive behaviors, personality expression, decision making and moderating correct social behavior. The basic activity of this brain region is considered to be orchestration of thoughts and actions in accordance with internal goals.

but this is getting long enough, i want some people to actually read it
if anyone's interested i could go on...
:cheers2:

 

very very very interesting. here's my suggestion:

try a research chemical once

thats it

you'll want more but just do it once.

then take at least a month off.

maybe try another.

don't do what i did.

i tok 2c-i, day off, 2c-e, day off, 2c-t-2.

BAD CALL

 

well i posted this partly b/c of taking 2ce 10 or 12 times in 7 months. it got me thinking...
i have a very peculiar tight feeling in the back of my head sometimes. especially if i'm tired or if i smoke weed...
i figure time off can only help
i do have a dose of 2cb to take this summer sometime, but then i think i'll take it easy on tripping for awhile

 

Porkstock! This is a fantastic thread

I was not aware about 5ht2a controlling other things as well, or it being dispersed throughout the body. I still suspect however that the ultimate cost of tripping too frequently (assuming something nontoxic like LSD) is psychological, whether the root of it is in physical changes in the body or simply in a warping of higher-level functions like "thoughts", is an interesting question. This is why we need more research in these things.

We are also lumping a LOT of *different* things together by talking about "psychedelics", some of which are less toxic than vitamin C, others which are lethal in doses only a bit bigger than their recreational dose. It's like trying to discuss the impact of "nutrients" on the body . . . well, it really depends which one!

RESEARCH, all you future scientists

 

i think i read a report of that on erowid...i'd assume it was you.


or it may have just been on one of these threads somewhere...

 

this is a good point (the italic part especially) which i meant to include in my OP. thanks for reminding me. each compound is different in several ways:
-structure influences how tightly or for how long a drug will bind to the receptor and elucidate it's effects.
-some drugs are full agonists, while others are only partial.
-each one is metabolized and eliminated in at least slightly different ways.
the list goes on i'm sure

and to be a little more clear i'm mostly thinking about LSD, psilocin, mescaline, 2cb (and therefore likely 2ce, -i, -c, etc. - i think the -t-# series are potentially more dangerous)
ha mostly the ones i've done i guess is why i care
but stuff like ketamine and other dissociates are completely different
like i said MDMA affects a different subclass of receptors - but has many similarities..
and of course RCs in general and expecially some of the obscure ones are largely unresearched strictly scientifically
but most of the 4sub trypts are strikingly similar to to psilocin. but i know that their psychedelic effects still vary widely, but it is a common and somehwat neccesary assumption in science that structure is related to function, so therefore i think it's a reasonable assumption that some of the 4 sub trypts are similar to psilocin in their molecular effects.

liike you said though, psychologically speaking they are much more different.

 

i wouldn't stress too much. If there was any evidence that any of these caused cancer especially mdma the dea and other le would be all over it. At the moment they have to report to making data up in order to publish seriously negative papers on most of these. Plus shulgin tripped about once or twice a week for about 40 or 50 years and he and ann are fine. There are a lot of tribes around the world that for ages have regularly done things like dmt, mushrooms and mescaline and i don't recall every reading high rates of cancer and other weird medical shit in them. Everything fucks us up in some way. Look at alcohol. That's a proven neurotoxin and i think it causes cancer too and millions of people hit that shit every weekend.

 

this is a very interesting thread. i wish i was more educated in the science field.
but from experience, i think that trippin once in a long while is better, ive gotten better and funner results that way. when i over did (tripped every weekend) i never got what i wanted out of the trip, it wasnt as fun, and my mind just felt worn out. i also saw tracers all the time and could make things move (i still do but not as much).
but now i trip once every long while and each experience is way more amusing and mind expanding.

is there any information like this on mixing chemicals? Im gonna be mixing some chemicals in the near future for hopefully a pretty crazy trip, but am worried about the mixture. DOM, 2c-i, and "acid"

 

those are some good points.
and i've pointed to the health of shulgin and his wife myself, but those are just 2 people. real safety is in numbers. i know thousands of people have had these RCs but the long term is unknown and not really being studied scientifically. but we all agree that it should be...just for the knowledge, not for evidence to make the drugs illegal. i'm not trying to disuade anyone from psychedelic use, i know everyone here is gonna make their own decision, but i think it's best to weigh all sides equally and then make an informed decision.

how often do you trip nowadays? just curious how similar it is to my "goal" of once per season, or 4x per year.

i haven't seen any info like this about mixing chems, but i would bet it is safe to assume that it is Not as safe as each chemical alone, added together. there are usually synergistic effects btwn drugs to make their sum more powerful..especially drugs of the same type. this synergy can make for a hell of a night, or a heaven i suppose

 

this year ive probably tripped like once or twice. which is alot better than last year around the same time. thats when i was trippin every weekend. Its also why im striving to way less trips a year, but at the same time way more significant trips.

my first trip this year was on some really really good shrooms, proly the best ive ever had, about an 8th.
and the other time i mixed some shrooms with some 2c-i, but hardly tripped at all. it was very weird.

as for mixing the chems, i am kinda concerned with the safety of the mixture. but ima do it anyways. i know im not gonna be taking huge amounts of any of them, so everything should be cool. but its always good to know about any info on the topic that may be out there.

but i dont plan on trippin more than 6 times a year. unless of course i come accross something ive been wanting to try alot.

 

Very interesting thread.

I'm not gonna get into the scientific aspects of this discussion; mainly because I don't know shit about shit, but I tripped on 2ce and 2ci about 15 times within a month and I didn't feel the slightest bit different when I suddenly ran out of my supply and had to stop tripping. lol I'm talking about some pretty high doses too. No change in social interactions. No permanent, or even temporary change in perception lasting longer than the trip, whether visual or otherwise. The only difference I noticed is that marijuana seemed to be a lot more psychedelic during the couple of weeks following the trips.

Of course, the lack of any lingering effects could be attributed to the fact that my brain and body are already fukt beyond repair. lol

 

^^ yeah, some of my friends feel the same way, theyll do alot of shit and nothing will happen, i guess it affects people differently? i have no idea. shits crazy.

 

i think i see a bit of tracers and random movement in my peripheral vision.

i have that weird tight head feeling...sometimes

weed is crazy now

i worry about my health a little bit..my heart, my brain, my digestive tract..

but don't get me wrong i love to trip..so i'm just basically talking about weighing the risks..

 

yeah, i think alot about my heart, my brain and my psychological health ALOT.

 

I'm really glad someone brought this up because I have been VERY curious about this very subject a lot recently so thank you. Very informative.

 

The main thing I worry about from excessive tripping is cardiac issues. I've always been very paranoid about my heart, for some reason.

This is why hypochondriacs shouldn't trip, and I'm definitely a hypochondriac. haha

 

well after all this, it look like i might get some more 2ce and possibly smaller amounts of 2cc/2ct7/2ci

 

For about 8 months, i went without any Rc's or other psychs. See, i have HPPD and know it. It affects me on a daily basis. Can get weird. The eight month break did not do anything to diminish these effects. Actually, i never had this problem before taking RC's.

I used to trip 3 times a week off of various things. Now with the visual disturbances and slightly impaired cognitive functions and perceptual changes. Not everyone gets these symptoms though. More research needs to be done regaurding these matters.

 

I get HPPD pretty bad sometimes after a chem bender, especially tryptamines, always seems to go away but can take over a year.

 

^ over a year? thats a long time.
i still see colors all the time, and things can move when i want them too, and ive hardly done RCs at all. and im so curious about them all, haha.