Opinion on Old Testament?

I found this site: http://www.evilbible.com/ I was somewhat skeptical about the validity of the claims and was sure the verses must have been taken out of context or twisted, so I looked up the different verses that supposedly supported rape and murder. The really sad thing was their quotes were almost spot on to the Biblegateway quotes.

So my question to Christians is simple: what do you think about the statements from the Old Testament? How can this God be the same God you believe in?

From what I've read, it seems like the God of Jesus and the God of Moses is not the same- perhaps Jesus was never referring to the God of old, the entity, but rather the Divine w/in, the essence within everything. This is just my opinion, but it seems like the God of Jesus is peace loving, while the God of old was wrathful, murderous, and rather hateful- I find it impossible to reconcile the two.

Peace and love

 

I've asked the same question for quite some time now.

I either get

" G-d didn't change. It was the way people perceived It and acted about G-d that changed."

Or

" Jesus came back in the New Testament, and showed us a different way."

Neither make sense. According to Xianity, Jesus is G-d. Which means G-d DID change, thus contradicting the Bible when it says
"G-d is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

And regarding the 1st response. If it truly is the way that people acted about G-d that changed, this can only mean one thing. The Bible is full of liars, because everything they did G-d supposedly told them to do. So either your perfect G-d is lying, or the Old Testament is full of liars. And if this is the case, why should you trust any other character in this fictional book of yours?

Namaste, John.

 

So did some of the early Christians, like Marcion, who taught that they were not the same God, for reasons that you just outlined. He had a following for awhile, but lost out to the view that it was the same God. I think God has "evolved". The Bible reflects the views of men, specifically Israelites, trying to make sense of God and their reality. There are many passages, the Psalms, Micah, Isaiah, Amos, Ecclesiastes, etc., which are profound, majestic, beautiful expressions of the human quest for justice, compassion and the sacred. Those are the ones that move me. There are others like the passages your website selected. I have no trouble glossing over those. Some of them are a response to challenges to the religious integrity of the Jewish faith presented by pagan influences from the Caananites, Egyptians and Babylonians, and can be understood in that context.

 

why would God evolve?

that doesn't even make sense.

 

I guess I kind of find it hard to pick out the points you like and ignore the ones you don't like from a book that is supposed to be God's Perfect Word. Although, I don't think the Bible is God's Word per se, only b/c of the fact that imperfect humans wrote it and imperfect humans chose what books were in it.

I don't know, I guess I see it like my Dhammapada. If I went through and said, this verse and this verse works, but I'm going to ignore this and this point. Wouldn't that make the book, as a guidance for humans, obsolete or invalid? I guess what I'm saying is that you can't cherry pick through a supposed book which is the basis for a religion- that shows there are errors in the book which make it unworthy as a guide for humans.

What say you?

Peace and love

 

yeah but, every book in the bible is it's own separate book.

they weren't all written together by the same person at the same time. and there is no way that it is God's word, because then we wouldn't have all the denominations and different interpretations. Take what is useful to you and leave the rest. It is still guidance.

 

I guess I should be more literal on these sites. Our ideas about God, or our expression of them, "evolved".

 

You always seem to say exactly what I am thinking, but much more poetic.

I'd like to add though that those who thought that Yahweh and Jesus' Father were different Gods believed that Yahweh was the demiurge, creator of matter. A lesser god than Jesus' Father who basically wants us to stay in suffering. Oh demiurge, you are a jackass...

 

So why is the Bible held as the canon of Christianity? Why do people still claim that it is the "Word of God?" It seems difficult for me to understand why a flawed book would be used or at least updated.

Peace and love

 

I say there are passages in the Bible that are very worthy as a guide. I know them through judgment, based on reason and intuition--which are my main "guide" for humans. For the New Testament, I also follow a methodology similar to that of the Jesus Seminar--looking for multiple attestations in different sources and giving weight to the earlier sources. And I weigh the New Testament above all. But the basic principles are the key. The prophets taught us that values like Justice, love of God and love of neighbor are what it's all about. I don't exactly call this "cherry picking"

 

Christians who call the bible the "Word of God" (especially in capitals like that) are technically calling the Bible a person of the Trinity. The Word of God is a title given to the Son. The bible canon was decided for political reasons (among others) which is why you find Paul's letters even though they were of disputed use when canon was being decided upon.

The problems of canon are deeper than just a "flawed" book. how do you apply a limited number of words to every situation in the world. The Bible never speaks of what to do if someone is on life support or even directly about other hot-topic issues. That is where hermenutics come in. What was the original intent of writing passage X? What is the context of passage X that will change it's meaning today? etc.

Prodestants use something called "canon within canon" as a basis for their hermenutic (I don't fully understand the phrase), wereas Catholics and I am sure Orthodox Christians use (Capital T) Tradition as a basis for hermenutics...

 

Do we sound like we're doing that?

 

Trying to follow words spoken so long ago is a dangerous path. They were written for another time and place. Islam is often accused of having difficulty meshing with the modern day. Same can be said of the OT.

Interesting reading. A few pearls of wisdom. But not something I would trust my immortal soul to. And I'm certainly not going to trust the long line of "priests" who offer interpretation of it.

The OT is all about power. It's use and abuse of. The human animal, and something called reason. For the day, this was high thinking. Enforced by a priestly caste. A fruit itself, of this power based philosophy.

Without compassion, a spiritual journey is not possible.

As the OT makes little mention of this, it should be regarded as a first grade reader for a first grade seeker. Take what you will from it and keep walking.



x

 

What I mean by "cherry picking" is that there are a number of conflicting messages. God is all good, just, loving, and perfect, yet at the same time, is spiteful, hateful, angry, and jealous. It seems as though you are picking the positive notions while ignoring the negative ones. This is cherry picking- only acknowledging the values of justice and love and ignoring the hatred and destruction which is also taught. What keeps one from using the Bible as a means to justify warfare, genocide, and rape when the OT is full of stories about such acts? Instead of looking for the good, that person would be focused on all the negative messages.

Let's say one of my professors gave us a textbook on geology, telling us this book is the absolute reference for all things geology. Then, he tells us that chapters 3, 7, and 12 are useless, don't bother reading them b/c they are out of date and false. Why, then, are we referencing this book when there are newer, better books that are more accurate w/ up to date information? This is more of an analogy that I am getting at.

Peace and love

 

Great post as usual.

 

Because there may be information and perspectives or chapters in that book that just aren't available elsewhere. What is the more "up to date" book? Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett?

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean, exactly. If a textbook is out of date, it is no longer used. I have never really heard of a textbook that is out of date that would have information, perspectives, or chapters that would not be found in a newer edition. As textbooks are updated, the faulty information is discarded and replaced with better information. Many new views are emerging while others are being dismissed or losing some of their credit, as flaws are being found.

I don't understand what you mean about "up to date" books- books by any of the above are not textbooks. In my classes, we learned about Darwin's ideas and noted what our evidence supports and what it doesn't, but we did not read "Origin of Species" as our text book. A textbook normally has observations, hypothesis, experiments, and then theories that are drawn from this information. As new evidence from experiments and observations appears, theories either are supported or discredited. Science is not static. Also, when one gets into the nuances of a subject, this is more often the time one looks into books by Dawkins and others; many times, scientific pioneers assume that those reading the books have a basic knowledge on the subject.

The Old Testament, in particular, contains archaic views on many subjects- why is it still a canon? If it promotes violence, why is this issue not addressed? I think Marcion had a good point, as Jesus himself did not refer to God as Yahweh, but Abba. Why the discrepancy?

Peace and love

 

Again, like many other times, people continually take surface readings of passages and try to make God into some kind of monster.

For example:
1 Chronicles 21: Between 1 Chronicles chapter 20 & 21 there is a period of approximately 20 years. During this 20 years David committed adultery with Bathsheba, murder of Uriah, sins of Amnon, revolt of Sheba, revolt and rebellion against David by Absalom. See 2 Samuel 14-20.

Now God is Sovereign. The people had sinned against the LORD's annointed one, and thereby against the LORD.

Also, Israel had asked for a king despite God's own recommendation against it. They insisted and God warned them that if they chose an earthly king, that the king's sin/righteousness would be born by THE PEOPLE. God warned them, they refused, they rebelled, God punished them.

Who's at fault?

Please research passages referred to on the evilbible.com website and the history of such passages and how they relate to the context of the WHOLE Bible.

 

From your description, God is an angry, hateful, spiteful entity. If man does not listen to his every word, he punishes them w/ hardship and death. But why would a good God treat his imperfect creatures in this manner? As omniscient, he would know their weaknesses, know that his warnings would not be headed, so why would he punish them when he KNEW that this would happen? Something does not make sense about this situation. I am sorry, but Yahweh, as the Old Testament describes, is a monster, one that kills to show power, destroys those who disagree, and holds grudges against innocent people for crimes they did not commit.

When God killed the first born in Egypt, how were those innocent babies at fault for what the Pharaoh did? Why did He strike down those innocent as a point against the Pharaoh? If God is so just, why didn't he only punish the ones at fault and care for his children, if we are all his children?

I am a firm believer that violence is not an answer, so why would I follow a god that uses violence as means of control, as a means to punish those who do not agree with him or hold other beliefs?

You also ask, "who is at fault?" Good question, are the imperfect, flawed, and short sighted humans at fault or would an all-knowing, all-powerful God be at fault? I would have to say that is the latter of the two, for how can God be respected when he takes revenge on those who were weaker, those who were not perfect, and those who couldn't possibly understand the Will of Infinite Being.

Peace and love

 

God is sovereign after all.

How many Hebrew people (adults and children) did Pharaoh and his people kill?
How many Hebrew people (adults and children) were saved by fleeing Egypt?
How many lives since have been saved by Israel being its own nation?

We don't know the answers to these questions.

To call God (GOOD or EVIL) is to put Him in a box. A box of our own making with our own boundaries and limitations.

Meanwhile God says to you and I:
Isaiah 55:8: "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.

There's great comfort in that statement if you'll take the time to reflect on it.