Here's some info to chew on. My job requires a fair deal of welding. Steel is the most common material that I weld, and oxy-acetylene, aka gas welding, is the method I use. I have taken plenty of classes on welding and I have melted a good deal of steel. The melting point of steel is about 2000 degrees farenheit. To soften steel for forging, the temperature must be over 1100 degrees farenheit. The difference in hardness of steel between 800 degrees and 80 degrees is almost nothing. All steel does at temperatures under 1000 is expand slightly. All fires require two things, fuel and oxygen. The more fuel that is present, the more volume of fire, but the fire does not burn at a higher temperature, the more oxygen that is present, the higher the temperature of the fire. Heat does not build up, once a material reaches the temperature of the fire, it does not get any hotter. You can hold an oxy-acetylene torch, which burns at about 6100 degrees, to a fireproof brick for three years, the brick will never reach a temperature over 6100 degrees. Jet fuel, with normal atmospheric levels of oxygen, burns at about 600 degrees farenheit. in the presence of pure oxygen, jet fuel burns at about 1100 degrees, just enough to reach forging temperatures. The only way jet fuel could have burned hot enough to soften the steel support beams would be if the building was full of pure oxygen, and pure oxygen was being constantly pumped in to replace that which was burned off. A fire produces smoke when it is oxygen starved. with enough oxygen, no fuel produces smoke. At normal atmospheric levels of oxygen, all petroleum fuels, including jet fuel, are oxygen starved. This is why a car with a bad air filter belches out black smoke. This is why diesel vehicles tend to produce more smoke than gasoline vehicles, diesel fuel requires more oxygen than gasoline. The twin towers were belching out humongous plumes of black smoke, the fires were in an enclosed area and they were seriously starved of oxygen. I'm no scientist, but I know how to melt steel, and a petroleum fire is no way to go about it.
jwm, I and others pointed that pertinent fact out time and again, with more than enough linked citations to get the head in the sanders to at least begin to question the fraudulent coverstory (which btw was never proven to the public, merely repeated - with claims of korans found in parked cars and miraculously unburnt passports found on city sidewalks - again and again by our long compliant corporate media, until it became the desired paradigm of thought through which all further discussion of 911 could be filtered). The buildings pancaked directly downward precisely because the central supports had been melted into slag in the sub-basement levels likely using thermite charges (which accounts for the seismic recordings to which I also previously provided a link). This was a government planned and executed bait and switch crime of historic proportions and it traumatised the public just as it was intended to do in order to ensure that the subsequent plans for launching the long awaited conquests of Afghanistan and Iraq (and the "war which will not end in our lifetimes") met with fervent and unhindered "patriotic" support. Sadly far too many sheeple cling to the real conspiracy theory of ragtag malcontents in afghani caves being behind the most precise multiple attack in US airspace. To acknowledge the far more realistic involvement of key elements of this administration and our intelligence/MIC community would be to necessitate assuming civic obligations and action to demand a true, unfettered public investigation of our entire system. Most of our citizenry don't dare disturb their illusions of the comfortable daily status quo to devote that level of attention to the criminals and traitors presently solidifying their ideological hijacking of the nation and its future.
Sad but true. No matter how much evidence is presented that conflicts with the "official" story of 9/11, there will always be mindless types who will unconditionally believe their government is "pure good" and incapable of such an atrocity against its own people. Of course this is how the government so easily gets away with murder, and will continue to. Fortunately, many people are starting to wake up.
yeah they are starting to wake up...but the problem is that they don't know where to begin once they've "woken up". Network building is key to Revolutionary movements for social transformation.
Rat, Did you check out "Desperate Wives" off Eric Hufshmid's Website? it is an interview with a woman who was married to a guy in military intelligence and she drops the bomb on everything that happens in the military. She says these men are taken from when they first join and pressured into homosexual acts, which are photographed and videotaped, and these men cruise through the ranks while the men who do not partake in them stay towards the bottom, later, the videos and photos can be used to bribe these military officials into doing things/keeping things secret. Pretty crazy if that's true. Peace and Love, Dan
yeah, ignorance is bliss. It is definitely more disturbing to accept the truth, but anyone with half a brain has no choice. I read that book, it's good. It was the first one I read on the subject and it definitely got me thinking.
Nothing warms the heart like seeing conspiracy theorists sit around and agree how brilliant they all think they are. This is the true spirit of HipForums. Now I know you have all done MASSIVE research into this story, and studied all conceivable explanations since you of course are extremely sceptical and reluctant to believe conspiracy theories, but I wonder how this slipped by the collassal dragnet of investigation the lot of you must have pursued. With all the talk about jet fuel, nobody seems to have noticed that other things burn hot too (even things less exotic than "thermite charges"). The hottest part of a candle is 1400 degrees celcius. http://webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/3B.html I now return you to your regularly scheduled conspiracy and self contratulation session.
Well then, mr smartypants, what exactly was it that was burning hot enough to melt steel, and with enough volume to melt the huge pillars? Perhaps there were some extremely flammable and high temperature building materials used around the pillars, after all, flammable materials are highly sought after to build multi-million dollar buildings. Perhaps there were thousands of candles surrounding the pillars. I honestly do not know what brought those buildings down. I'm not making theories, I am only working with what I know about fire and steel, and asking questions that need to be answered. Jet fuel will not melt steel, and will not weaken steel at atmospheric levels of oxygen. I can not think of any other substance that would be present in a high-rise office building that could melt or weaken steel. If it wasn't jet fuel (and it certainly wasn't) and it wasn't explosive charges (I never said it was, but it is a more plausible theory than anything else I have heard) then what exacty was it that brought down those buildings? Why does the media and government insist on blaming the collapse on jet fuel melting pillars when it is simply not possible. Wouldn't they know better than that? Hell, any redneck who knows how to weld knows better than that, wouldn't they have all sorts of expert investigators studying the situation, examining the wreckage, taking samples, conducting tests and everything who would be able to tell us exactly what it was that brought those buildings down? Wouldn't they at least ask someone if jet fuel can melt steel? This is quite possibly the biggest crime in the history of the country, but a more thorough investigation is conducted whenever a single person is murdered.
Why is it that the same bloody points get brought up over and over.. for crying out loud..go read the last friggin post about 9/11 . What is it you post how the girders can't melt at such and such tempature and this and that could not happen.. you get perfectly reasonable answers links etc over and over and over again..Why not read them . Does nobody have a memory that stretches back more than a day ... I apologise for being rude.. but nobody apart from myself has a blunt mind.. surely your thoughts and your inteligence could move on from such things.. I don't think some people want a resolution or a end of this even if Mr bush said 'yeah we blew up the friggin towers' (not that he did).
I posted it because I wanted to. Of course it's nothing new to the people who have studied 9/11, but it could help open other people's minds. And the fact is, there is no reasonable answers for why the towers collapsed.
Open other peoples minds ? mmm well as long as the other side keep repeating the same things i guess. Its just down to the individual and what conclusion they want to come too.. There is as much reasonable explanations (more so imho) as there is against it. Imho your way is ilogical and based on to many questionable notions. The other way (dull answers) are based on no bias at all.. just investigators doing there job. http://vincentdunn.com/wtc.html http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/NYTimes91801.htm it goes on and on and on... If you added both arguements and was not so one sided , it would be a bit more fair.. surely you have come across some good info that proves certain aspects of the event from the other POV...if your just in it to 'enlighten' people.
