Peace on Earth?

OK - it's been 2,000 odd years we've been hearing how christmas heralds the coming of peace on earth. 2,000 years that is, marked by frequent religious wars, and many wars between christians.

When will you dumbheads realize that c/anity doesn't do what it says on the box?
Far from bringing peace, it has led only to division, persecution and war. (I'm tempted to add 'stupidity' too).

I'm rather glad when I read that sales of 'religious' xmas cards are down by a further 20% this year in the UK. I am sick of the phoniness of cards which proclaim 'peace on earth' whilst the very nations in which they are produced are engaged in at least two major wars.
It sickens me that persons such as Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair can sit down to their unhealthy xmas meal whilst kids in Iraq languish in hospital with insufficient drugs and anaesthetics as a result of their christian deeds, ie starting a war on the basis of a pack of lies. (Just like back in the days of the crusades).

So let's be clear - c/anity hasn't brought peace on earth, and it seems extremely unlikely that given the real situation it ever will. Much more likely to result in more of the same sad old story.

 

You’re forgetting the Christians believe Peace on Earth can only be achieved if everyone converts to Christianity. Since everyone hasn’t converted yet your argument is not valid :H


Then again perhaps they should check themselves.

Especially leaders like Christian evangelical Rev. Ted Haggard who confessed to his followers that he was guilty of "sexual immorality." by lying down with another man, and copulating with enough force to give new meaning to word Sodom



Hotwater

 

blackbillblake I suppose you mean you are not going to church this year and celebrating christmas which - after all is "Christs mass" "christs assembly"?

could you be a bit more clear about your views of religion I'm not certain you are coming across clearly enough

 

"Christian" men don't always act the part we're flawed and human. "Buddhist " men don't always act kind and loving. We're flawed and human. Believe it or not there's Atheist and Agnostic men who have been genocidal maniacs. Also, Christian men and women who've helped clothe the needy, heal the sick and provide warmth to the broken hearted aren't few and far between.

I'm not in total disagreement with you though. I'm not a supporter in ANY Christian who is a murderer, liar or thief. BTW I'm not a supporter of ANYONE who holds these same characteristics. '

So, while I'm sure you can reel off names of Christians not doing their part in the Peace on Earth effort. I'm sure I can name off just as many Christians who are or were. Just as many secular people who were murderers. Just saying you're Christian doesn't make you better. No more then saying you have strong legs makes you jump higher. You have to work at it.

 

Ok - I think c/anity, and indeed montheism in general is, to quote William Burroughs, 'the worst poison ever administered to a sick planet'.
It has failed to deliver peace, yet people still parrott the word every xmas, whilst their armies fight in several locations globally.

I could go on and on here - about the anti-life nature of xtian belief, the hypocrisy of the conspicuous consumption (52 square miles of wrapping paer in the Uk evidently this year - that's enough to gift wrap the island of Jersey - wonder how much gets properly re-cycled?) in a world where half the population live on less than a dollar a day, and above all, the simple fact that it is all based on spurious and illogically constructed myths, which portray humans as basically bad or negative beings.

I don't object at all to a mid-winter holiday - I think that's a good idea, but as we know, not one thought up originally by xtians, but pagans. There is more of the pagan in me than the xtian. Hope that clarifies my position.

 

I think it's a travesty that most of the world lives on that little a day. Let me ask...How much per capita is given by each major religion to help these people. Not whole amount because that wouldn't be fair. Per capita.

 

I have no idea how much is given by religions. I assume it is a fair amount, but that's because they're busy trying to curry favour with their god, not because they genuinely want real and lasting change. If they did, they'd realize that charity on this level can never solve the worlds problems. It is in fact a means of massaging the conscience for wealthy westerners, and a cop out by the governments who should and could be doing something meaningful.
BTW - on the news yesterday they were saying that millions which was donated to the tsunami appeal remains unspent two years later. So actually, giving to these organizations isn't always such a great idea. A lot of money goes to pay charity bosses etc. It is in effect another big business.



However, people come and go - they are replacable by the next generation. This is not the case with the earth itself. Or it's limited rescources. Xmas is, as far as I can see, an ecologists nightmare. Tons of useless plastic crap, packaging, and masses of energy burned to light up trees and houses.

I'm not just taking a 'humbug' attitude towards xmas here - there is a serious point that c/anity, and the other monotheisms are completely incapable of addressing the most important issues confronting mankind today - environmental meltdown and climate change. The basic xtian idea is that humans have complete precedence over other spieces, and that this world 'is evil'. Many even desire the end of the world.
I find that chilling. Twisted minds. Twisted that is, by their nasty and fantastical belief system.


Also the 'season of goodwill' will no doubt be marked yet again as it always is by a big increse in drink related violence. In the place I live, to go out on xmas eve is quite dogy. Lst year, even my local village pub had some poor sod pushed through a plate glass window.
To me it all seems a bit of a disfunctional nonsense.

 

12 noon, central time, Christmas Eve, southern city of 3 million in the good old USA..."quite dogy" would be a gross understatement here.


What's wierd is that on Dec. 26th the music just stops cold, except for the bargain-maniacs at day-after sales.

 

Christ states that peace will only happen when He returns, and He stated that if it were not for His return, man would destroy himself. I would say Jesus knew what He was talking about.

 

Of course it's Christians who do all evil in the world. Christmas is the reason a lot of places in the world suck. Jesus is the God of the evil and greedy...SCAPEGOAT

That's all Christianity is for a lot of people is a big scapegoat. ALL Christians are running over wild animals in gas guzzling HUMMERS as they laugh heartily. While atheists are taking public transportation to homeless shelters to feed them veggie burgers. PLEASE

As you kick back in England on your 'net connected computer and complain about how unfair this is and that is instead of realizing how blessed you are. I can only wonder...Maybe, just maybe, complaining about this or that problem as you flip the channels on your digital cable could be cause for self reflection. Rather than simply slamming a group of people.

 

Huge thanks to Christ for bringing Christianity into the world, so often it did bring peace and calm to the regions it spread throughout, often instilling order, justice and charity among those nations.
The record of Christian charity throughout the last 2,000 years is beyond all belief and probably could not be counted.
Even tonight I enjoyed assembly and after hearing about peace on earth - you really see it manifested among the congregation.
So it is made real as it said.

But yea, its true that there is a second coming of the Christ which is to start off with him letting asshole people destroy each other,
Clean up the planet and then swords are turned into plowshares and peace is the rule over the planet.
But thats the next time.

 

It's not a group of people I am critical of, xtians are simply dupes. It is the doctrines of c/anity which I consider to be false and dangerous, as the last 2,000 show quite clearly to anyione but the brainwashed or simply stupid.

 

Im a bit confused by Blacks analysis of the last 2,000 years here.
As Christianity spreads it almost certainly sees improved education, living standards and in particular more organised social structures.
Give or take the usual dips and renewals you eventually see 'Christendom' bring forth the modern scientific method, universities, all sorts of good indicators like advanced medicine, renaissance, publishing and so on.
Not to mention imcomparable expidition and discovery of the world.
I dont think there is room to list the great Christian minds of the last centuries.
Galileo,
Isaac Newton,
Christopher Columbus,
Louis Pasteur,
Abe Lincoln,
CS Lewis,
Charles Spurgeon,
Thomas Aquinas,
Luther,
Rembrant,
Dostoyevsky,
Chaucer,
Origen,
Francis Bacon,
Pascal,
Davinci,
Copernicus,

Christians every one of them and half of them are the very 'inventors' of any of the sciences or arts popular today.
From Chemistry to Mathematics and so on.

Thats some pretty good company to be in if youre a Christian heh!

One Christian making the news lately has been Francis Collins. If you dont know him yet, he is the Head of the Human Genome Project, the 'cuting edge' science of the day, so to speak.
http://www.genome.gov/10000779
Collins isnt really any different than so many of the early christian fathers of modern science.
They have this 'wacky' belief they get from their Bible: That God can be understood through studying His Creation.
The World around us.
Like Newton or Pascal or the others, Collins is just taking it to the new modern micro level of DNA.
Im still looking forward to a copy of his book 'The Language of God'.

In the meantime, believe it or not Im reading Bertrand Russel.
He makes Dawkins look 'smart' in comparison. (well mind you Dawkins really just replays Russel in a 'Micheal Moore-ish' way but with good speaking skills)

 

I think it is very much a group of people you are critical of. Still this is what I don't understand...How can you live in a land where most of the citizens are adherents to/of Christianity? You seem to be reaping the benefits of living in Christian society without wanting the actual "dumb" Christians around.

It seems as though our civilzations are the most advanced by far. Not bad for a group of simple dupes.

 

Your posts have a very familiar tone and style to them...looks like reincarnation is a reality, at least on HF.

BTW, best wishes for Christmas to everyone!

 

I don't live in a land in which c/anity has much influence at all. It is very rapidly dying out in Britain, and the sooner the better I say.
Thje benefits I get from society are purely the result of growing secularization since about 1750. Many of the actual improvements in society have come despite c/anity, and certainly not because of it. They are the result of secular humanism and liberal capitalism softened with a socialist element.

If our western civilization is 'the most advanced' which it is in material terms, then it is certainly very little to do with xtians.

 

Newton was a Jew who embraced c/anity probably to avoid the anti-semitic climate of British xtian society of the day. He actually produced his own somewhat whacky version of xtian eschatology. Interestingly, the poet William Blake numbered Newton as among the greatest enemies of c/anity. See Blake's painting 'Newton' or the many references in the writings eg, 'The Marriage of Heaven and Hell'.

Copernicus and Galileo were both denounced by the church and their writings were banned. (posthumously in the case of the former).

The others on the list are mainly theologians etc, whose contribution is very questionable. If you ever read Russell's 'History of Western Philosophy', he shows quite clearly how the arguments of Thomas Aquinas, based as they are on Aristotelian logal formulae, are thouroughly unreliable, as that system of logic has long ago been shown to be deeply flawed.

Origen is also a most unfortunate choice as an exemplar, as he castrated himself as a young man. Hardly a very balanced mind to have an influence on others IMO. To-day he'd be in a mental hospital dignosed as a self-harmer. Or perhaps he was an early repressed transexual.

For Doestoevsky, although he was a great novelist (perhaps the best even), he really only played at c/anity, as a study of his biography clearly shows. He liked to go off binging on vodka and sleeping with prostitutes, and then spend a few weeks in 'repentance' before comencing the same cycle again.

Russell's 'Why I am not a christian' is certainly an amusing and witty book, but Russell is too much the materialist for me, and I doubt logical positivism or Russell's brand of logical analysis has much credibility left.
Dawkins is OK but I think he fails to distinguish between different types of spirituality. I agree with him in the main regarding western mono-theisms, c/anity, islam abyslam and judaism. Other forms of spirituality may be in a different category, as they don't have the same rigid teachings or dangerous power hierarchies.

Generally I feel that scientists who claim to be xtians are simply held back by stuff like guilt programming from religious upbringings and so on. They are afraid to let go. It is an emotional attachment.

 

What true brand of christianity would have a clergy that is richer than the people it serves? what poor need the charity of a church that banks with criminals and is a mighty landowner that still has enough money to solve the crisis of African and South American poverty?

I say the poor dont need the Catholic church for sure !
That church is a rich powerful elite that grabs with its big fists what it can and gives the majority to the rich while pitying the poor

Who needs the pity of a criminal organisation?

 

I agree. Rememeber 'God's Banker' - Calvi was it? Who was found hanged beneath a bridge in London a few years back. Dodgy dealings in the Vatican bank and all that...

But really, they are unique among criminal organizations, in that most straightforward, let's even say 'honest' criminals, don't claim to explain the universe, or threaten people with eternal punishment. Their brand of punishment is purely temporal.
And the attitude of most criminals towards peadophile gangs too is well known.

 

Oh its has everything to do with the Christians.
Everything is established by the time we get to the 1950s.
Here is where the decline starts.
This is pretty much true for most of the western cultures in the former 'Christendom'.
Even that gets a bit difficult for our argument because we still do have a signifigant number of 'Theists' who believe in 'God' (but not neccesarily only revealed through Christianity).
And these people still maintain there is a 'moral right and wrong'.
You were not replaced with 'atheism' but still languish in soft Christianity, Deism, Theism and a 'sentimental' habit of the former predominant worldview.

Now it might be worth noting that our societies have not exactly improved since the decline in Christianity.
Interestingly, The USA see's rates of STDS, Murder, unwanted pregnancies go up pretty much in direct correlation to rates of church attendance going down.
Other things to think about become relative. For example if we look at the rates of unwed mothers, homosexual culture, divorce and drug culture?
If you are one of the majority of those who no longer sees any problem with these things then they are not concerns anymore anyways.
If you are pre1950s then I guess you would say they were 'bad' developments.

At any rate, the ideals, the social structure, infrastructures and premise of democracy and justice has been established for you by a predominantly Christian culture.

Another thing that might be interesting to watch would be the nations that are ahead of the UK.
Namely, Russia. China.
These people already went for the socialist utopia but put their money where their mouths were and removed theism entirely.
After about 40 years of logical conclusions they are reforming away from that.
China in particular experiencing spectacular change and renewal to Christianity.
So I would be interested to see what the johnny-come-latelys will do given another 20-30 years to catch up?

We can at least agree on Dawkins flaw. He is one popularising the umbrella term 'religion' as if it were a single worldview in itself.
This is like taking issue with 'Politics'.
Well terrific, I can write you all sorts of papers showing you what 'politics' has done wrong.
Nazis were a political party. Churchil was a 'politician' so *therefore* look at the damage 'Politics' did.
I mean honestly thats the 'logic' if I use terms and concepts like Dawkins does.