Redefining Male identity in the Homer Simpson era

Perhaps this is similar to the "antimale bias thread," but I'm hoping this spurns a more constructive discussion.

I have been curious for some time about the male role in our society today since the feminist movement. Although I'm female, I do not consider myself a feminist. I am, if anything, a humanist. I believe that women should not get treated any differently then men (except for the obvious biological circumstances) because special treatment leads to a perpetuation of the victimhood mentality.

My sister, on the other hand, is a raging feminazi, and we often get into arguments on the subject. She's also really into gender in general, and LGBT rights. Her basic assumption seems to be that gender doesn't and shouldn't matter. My stance is that it doesn't matter which gender you identify with, and it might not matter to everyone, and that's ok...BUT, gender does matter to alot of people, and I don't believe there's anything with it mattering, because gender, like it or not, plays such a HUGE role in creating our sense of self.

One big criticism I have of the feminist movement is that it seems to have (intentionally or not) sent the message to men that the role they've had for thousands of years is completely wrong; women can do everything that you can do, and vice versa, and we'll all go live in happily in a world where nothing is mentioned about gender because it "shouldn't" matter.

The result seems to have been 2 seperate skewed, extreme views of manhood:

1) The Machismo view--manhood is about guzzling beers, objectifying women, watching football, thinking about sex constantly, going to bars and fighting people, and violence in general.

or, and this is the more recent phenomenon:

2) The Homer Simpson view--manhood is about being the stupid person who waits in the sidelines while the women control the world. The father figure in nearly every media portrayal of a modern family--The Simpsons, Family Guy, According to Jim, George Lopez, Everybody Loves Raymond--in every single one of these, the dad is the lovable imp who, although humorous, seems to be completely bewildered and powerless in his domestic surroundings. He seems to have been completely demasculated by either his wife or society at large (it's hard to tell).

My question is this: Do you agree that something has gone seriously wrong with society's views on manhood? Do you blame feminism, or is something else the culprit? Or do you consider yourself a male feminist? Are you ever offended by pop culture's portrayal of your gender, and if yes, do you ever do anything about it? Share your thoughts, I'm curious.

-Kate

 

Yes, in a sense.

Society has completely alienated itself from the image of a man back in the day. The working man was the real man, the family man was the real man, the outdoors man was the real man. What do we have now? Actors and athletes viewed as "real men".

Bah.

 

As a male...
If your nice your a pussy, women want real men.
If your not as nice, women need a man that can open up emotionally.
If your smart (and know it), your an egotistical ass, women want a man who is on a intellectual level, but will always lose a debate.
If your dumb your a "typical buffoon", refer to above.

Feminazi's are condradicting themselves, they say sexes are equal but they have "femin(ine) in there name. Where are the unisexnazi's?

Male and females were made for different things, Equal but different..

..and yes I am offended of society's view of males, I cn carry an intellectually debate fine and I still like to fight with my brother (physically). Dont conform to society.

Also, this may be a lil off topic but I am a white male. I am the oppresor that society has always hated. I myself have not done shit to any other race or gender specifically but I get crap for being male or white all the time. The other day I got called a white trash redneck, but you bet to hell if I say "shut it kike (or ******)" I am going to get stomped out.

 

I see the best aspects of masculinity being our once vaunted ability to get things done or to take charge and be dependable but that did seem to relegate women to the sidelines. Now men are hesitant to seize initiative not just from the fear of being socially incorrect but also because we have learned to understand how demeaning it is for someone else to take over with out giving others a chance to handle things them selves. Many modern women don't suffer from this initial uncertainty and so both take and are given the control in many situations. So perhaps for men we need to learn how to jump in and get involved in things with out feeling that we are hurting any women involved, perhaps we could just find a happy medium between our desire to jump in and take over and our conditioning to wait our turn. If we don't we'll continue to become the ineffectual slackers that we've started to morph into.

Strawberry_Fields question : Do you agree that something has gone seriously wrong with society's views on manhood?
I would, in that the guides and role models young males have as to how to be male are unhealthy and sometimes demening to their pride.

Do you blame feminism, or is something else the culprit? Or do you consider yourself a male feminist?
I do consider my self a feminist but I can see how some of this male disenchantment has resulted from the redefining of female roles to something better which effectively challenged established male roles. The male role having for the most part being a fulfilling one is one we might long to return to rather than establish a new one

Are you ever offended by pop culture's portrayal of your gender, and if yes, do you ever do anything about it? Share your thoughts.

I recognise the negative portrayal of men and boys in media but I've become inured to it which is not good at all. I do work with children in schools and I consciously adjust the materials to redress the biases that are endemic in the materials I use; other wise I find that there is simply nothing that the lads could contribute, I should mention that I work for a charity that goes into schools and facilitates discussions about various topics before someone thinks 'wait there's no gender inequality in sums!'
Some times I find that the lads are too used to the back seat to to join in some times they seize on the opportunity. and in some classes in some schools every one seem to work and exist together just fine. so it not always bad but it may be.

 

there is no male identity anymore

unmotivated is completely right

men are the enemy in our society

we fight each other
the nice guys hate the players, the players hate the nice guys

we all get shat on

that's why transexuals and femdom are so common these days
it's a sexual expression of our completely ruined social and emotional state.

 

Meh.

I like to work hard, and find physical labour stimulating.
I like sports.
I like beer.
I take pride in my indepence.
I love my girlfriend and enjoy living with her - most of the time. That extends to taking care of her.
I dislike talking about feelings - and won't about mine. Hell, I pretty much only have two; content or angry. It's easy to figure out what I am without droning on endlessly about it.
I get in the occasional fight. But I don't pick fights for no purpose anymore - I'm not scared to throw down for what I believe in or what's right.
I like literature.
I tend to like the stereotypical gender roles; I like my girlfriend more domestic than me. I think the concept of men plucking their eyebrows or getting their nails done is fucking ridiculous. For girls, I find it fine, and wouldn't date a girl who doesn't shave her legs/whatever. But I also enjoy doing some of the domestic chores (cooking in particular - I won't let my girlfriend touch my BBQ). I do all the stereotypically male chores.

I simply fail to see all any blatant sexism or contradiction in this and don't see how society is forcing anything different upon me.

 

our society now offers a much wider variety of accepted gender roles for men and women and you can choose the roles you want much easier than you could in the '50s. the stereotypes have been broken down for sure but not everywhere for everyone. obviously spooner's living a more traditional style and if that works for him and his lady that's great. men and women are much more free to choose the roles that work best for them.

if we start choosing gender roles based on tv stereotypes, we are all in huge trouble. turn off your tv and develop your own gender roles.

 

Not a bad Idea I ditched my tv and I've been happier but it's not the same for everyone. Many young men don't find any self fulfilment in the roles available to them many young men find that they face implicit and inferred criticism when they behave according to their nature. the inference is that there's something inherently bad about pronounced masculinity. also theirs a double standard that can laud a women for engaging in sports as being empowered while treat a men with suspicion for flaunting his machismo and designates them as dumb and dangerous. some times this view is more apparent but I think it is always their and you can't expect the impressionable not to notice it. Naturally some people are robust and don't let societal views affect them but not everyone is like that and even if they were it still remains a problem when others in society hold those views and it affects the society you live in e.g. the jobs you will be accepted for, how you are viewed in court, the types of tasks you are trusted with in work etc..

 

"From Chivalry to Terrorism"

"The Decline of Males: The First Look at an Unexpected New World for Men and Women"

A couple of books to consider reading. I found them searching on Amazon.com a while back. I read the reviews and thought they sounded interesting. The first one sounds like a very serious read, and I am kind of intimidated but I will read it as it got a good review in the newspaper.

 

I hate the shows like Simpon's and Family Guy. Ihate that Andy watches these shows and finds them amusing. I did go see the Simpson's movie and liked it not only because it was funny, but also because Homer got to finally play the hero.
These shows generaly make me very angry. I have also found that guys suddenly think it is cute to talk in cartoonish voices or act like they don't know how to fix situations. They also seem to think it is fine and even funny to drink too much beer, have poor manners, be excessivley loud in their bodily functions (ie-sneezing, burping etc...) and loaf on the couch. I find none of these things cute or funny, but rather bad manners ans signs of a bad upbrining.

 

There is a difference in how we act publicly and how we act amongst ourselves. I retain that a mans house is his castle and he can set what rules he pleases, of course I would never do this in the presence of female company.

Chivalry to Terrorism ~ That holds so true, dont open the door for a women and your a jerk, open it for them and your being condescending.

 

He should only be able to set rules if he lies by example and sets those rules out of a nurturing nature and wanting the best for his family as oppossed to his own selfish desires.
I find so many men who are dominant are so in order to get heir way all of the time or to get off sexualy. Being the king of your castle should really be about servant style leadership. You are there to lead your family out of servitude for them because you know what is best and love them more than you love yourself. In turn your family will respect you as a man.
I can't stand guys hwo don't open doors. Their fathers did them a huge diservice.

 

something has gone wrong. part of it is femnism and part of it is pop culture following the leader. and your damn rigt i'm offended by it


-i like good beer
-i like compteting in sports - i like to bust my ass training
-i like watching sports
-i like cartoons
-i like being cocky and confident in certain ways
-i like being smart in certain areas
-i like having and being sensitive in other areas
-i like working with children which isn't a "generally accepted job for a man"
-i open and hold doors for the elderly and woman
-i wait till the woman sits down first at a meal
-i want to be the provider for a wonderful woman, and hopefully a family
-i enjoy being a gentleman in certain situations - in others i enjoy being a typical male

i hate the fact that all the magazines that seem to influence male society have metro looking punks on the covers. males aspire to what Brad Pitt looked like in Fight Club. or other metro looking stars...are you fucking kidding me? thats not manly. guys getting all prettied up before going out, taking longer than a woman does - yea, not manly. low-rise jeans for men - yea, not manly. i shouldn't have to buy jeans 2-3 sizes bigger than what i am to fit into them.

i think growing up boys should be boys. no more recess or PE - yea, theres one reason for the downfall of boys becomign men. can't play tag anymore. thats BS. i let the boys i work with have room to get down and dirty, sometimes a little physical. rather teach them to settle things before it gets to the point where guns are involved. the fights i got into ended when the fight ended - there was no more violence after that. now we have shootings over bullshit - thats not manly. so yea, i allow the kids to vent and get physical every now and then - do they fight? no, but they wrestle a bit, burn some pent up anger and energy....then we talk abotu what happened and it ends there. no future problems. boys need to be boys, let them play. this psychobabble crap sayign tag, dodgeball and the like are violent is BS and its creating a group of boys who will not learn what its like to fall down and get back up. no longer do we have awards for the best - nope, we have trophies for everyone. you participated, so you get a trophy - what trophy you ask? the same trophy as the team who won the championship. its fine to award participation...but when its on the same level as the team/player who won the championship, thats wrong. i'm sorry, the world doens't work like that.

woman want to be independent - fine...ok, but they then want you to pay on dates, get them gifts, dont' be too protective of her or dont' help her out too much, because then oh noes your taking her independence away from her. but on the flip side, you dont' take care of her, you dont' get gifts, it means you aren't caring enough. love double standards like that. i know not all woman are like this - this is what is portrayed in pop culture.

 

One of the things I like about my fiance is that when we go out, she always reaches for her purse instead of simply assuming that I will pay for her. Often we split the bill, although occasionally I do pay for everything. Of course she likes it when I pay for both of us - hell, I'd like it if I were in her place - but she never assumes that I will and I appreciate that about her. It also makes the act of paying for her dinner/drinks/whatever special since I don't do it all the time.

 

:agree:

Yes, real men are servant leaders. They lead out of love for their family.

 

Yes. I blame feminism completely. I am NOT a feminist and have no time for the mentality of them.

 

Right on...then pay for your girlfriend more often on dates!!! I am kidding...kinda

 

I was in a long relationship with someone who visited me and let me pay for dinner once. I was horrified to be honest. I know he had more bills than me, but he also made a lot more than me so imo it was copletley unacceptable.

I couldn't imagine my fiance letting me pay for dinner. I don't know how he would react. I think he would get upset over it actually unloess it was his birthday or something. I just have no idea what he would do if I reached for the bill.
But yeah...don't let your girl pay anymore. Isn't she a teacher? They don't make a lot. I got offered a first grade position at a private school that shares our building at work. I was considering talking to Andy about it until I found out that it would pay just a bit over half of what I make now.

 

Neither do I. Our salaries are roughly the same. Which is why we usually split the bill. I don't make her pay for everything, though. Besides, we hardly go out. We're usually either at my place or hers.

 

i think you should pay if you invite someone to do something...regardless of sex...unless you ask them up front if they wanna go dutch.