Regarding the Capacity for Control of the Schizophrenic Mind with Hallucinogens

In this thread I would like to discuss the effects of hallucinogenic drug use on plasticity and adaption, as well as the implementation of such in the cognitive and behavioral treatment of schizophrenia.

 

I am guessing that this is the new thread aimed towards our discussions before?

As to the impact that my psychedelic experiences would have towards holding a schizophrenic relapse at bay, I can provide only pure speculation, as since my most recent stabilization, all of my true psychedelic experiences have occurred.

I believe that the experiences I have had with serotonin-agonist psychedelics would have a small, but helpful impact on dealing with a relapse. I believe that having control over an extremely altered state of mind (in psychedelics) gives the mind more 'practice' in navigating severely alien states of mind, such as found in Schizoaffective Disorder. Most of the time on a psychedelic is not like psychosis at all, as it is mostly positive, non-threatening, and I remained fully aware that I was under the influence of a chemical.

However, a few 'rough' spots have occurred, and I would say that the CONVERSE of this thread's proposition was more in order: My past experiences with PSYCHOSIS allowed me to easily navigate intense peak experiences on psychedelics, likely more so than the average person would handle. Does this work in converse as the thread's proposition hypothesizes, I really don't know. Frankly, I am hoping that I never HAVE a psychotic relapse, and I hope to have many MORE interesting psychedelic experiences, good, bad, or ugly. I simply find the state of mind purely interesting.

That will be my "opening statement" for now, and feel free to go off of any tangents from what I have said or ask new questions. Thanks.

 

From a strictly neurological perspective, I believe that the impact of the temporarily increased 5-HT2A receptor activity for the duration of a psychedelic trip on the persisting chemical and synaptic processes involved in the functioning of schizophrenia would be minimal.

In my experience, psychedelics have been beneficial mainly in blunting the initial shock of recognizing that my reality had changed; which can be a frightening and highly affective revelation.

Do you have any experience with deliriants?

 

Yeah, the psychedelics certainly don't aggravate my psychosis. Not at all. If anything, like we have somewhat hypothesized, they help "toughen" up your brain, getting it used to radical shifts of consciousness.

I don't have delerient experience. I never saw the appeal, and for me, I only take a drug that either is known for being mind-expanding or purely euphoric, not just a drug that "alters one's perceptions". So basically psychedelics, stimulants, opioids, and cannabinoids are okay, but delerients, depressants, and dissociatives are boring.

 

this is a very interesting conversation. "Drug ed" has done a good job of convincing me that psychedelics should be avoided by the psychologically unstable, but I hadn't considered that those with experience of an altered mind state might be more practiced in dealing with that mind state.

Have you ever experienced a sort of stacking of psychosis and psychedelics? Have you ever had your perception altered by both psychosis and psychedelics? Would you be able to distinguish one from the other?

I am fairly ignorant when it comes to psychosis, so forgive me if my questions don't make sense.

 

I would be able to distinguish between the two in a second. They feel completely different in almost every way possible.

 

And yet experience with one prepares you for the other. Very interesting.

So have you ever experienced psychosis while on psychedelics? Have psychedelics helped you avoid psychotic breaks? Are you ever able to consciously avoid a psychotic episode you feel coming on?

Again, sorry if i am using the wrong terms for the psychosis you experience, and thank you for helping me to understand the relationship between psychosis and psychedelics.

-tim

 

I think I should explain what psychosis in mental illness is 'like'. It will help you understand.

When you are psychotic, the entire setting seems fake. Not alien or goofy, but just not real. In addition, your thoughts race like nothing you'd ever experience. You lose the ability to focus on one thing as well. For instance, if you are at a restaurant, you literally hear every noise as if it were the person you are talking to. This leads, inevitably, to being overloaded and very scared. Then, on top of it, you tend to have these views on situations which are unnecessarily suspicious and negative. You think that EVERYONE has an agenda to try to keep you from being 'free.' You think that the guy who looks at you on the street (although he likely is just looking at you neutrally) is trying to size you up for a fight or is a detective with the FBI trying to catch you and lock you up in a State Insane Asylum.

You also become very hostile and have outbursts in public because you are 'sure' that everyone has this HUGE plot to lock you up and rape you or invade your privacy in some weird way. It is very creepy. Just picture a 'chase scene' in a cheap horror movie. That is what psychosis is like. And it lasts for DAYS.

Even my WORST psychedelic 'bad trip' is 100 times less threatening than this. When I have a bad trip, I am able to consciously acknowledge it as such, and I use psychotherapeutic tools to slowly evaluate what aspect of life caused me to trip badly. I sometimes even write things down to help 'resolve' the 'hidden' trigger. It usually ends very well, with a cathartic resolution and some sort of psychological strength gained. For instance, I might get uneasy talking to a friend, but after deep inner dialogue, I find out it is because I hold unnecessary views about how 'friendship' should operate that aren't necessarily true.

I hope that helps.

 

euthlogo, etkearne is very right about being able to easily distinguish between psychosis and tripping; although my psychotic experience is somewhat different.
In a bad psychotic episode, I feel like everything is speaking to me subliminally. The world is working on its regular superficial level, but everything is also operating on infinite other hidden levels and meanings. Everyone's words are speaking a different meaning than the obvious, and all objects exude some sort of understanding. Inevitably, this leads me to the conclusion that there is another entity intruding on my world, trying to control and manipulate the events that happen in MY sphere of influence. This results in confrontations with "Agents" of this other entity, as well as a constant internal dialogue, and the feeling that I am in constant defense of my world.
Or else I end up deluding myself into believing that I am omnipotent and impervious in the physical reality.

Either way, these experiences are nothing like tripping on a psychedelic.
I've never entered a psychotic episode while I was already hallucinating, but I've smoked Salvia when I was psychotic before. I figured that a loss of my ego would allow me to confront the "entity" that was impinging on my domain. It was NOT a pleasant trip, even in the typical Salvia way (which most people wouldn't consider pleasant anyway, but this was different). I can't really describe it, but it was like being dominated I imagine. It was as if I was stripped of every power I had, and the trip left me terrified and in a worse psychosis.
Dissociatives are not a good idea if you want to confront metaphysical entities trying to control your world. (;

Also, psychedelics have not helped deter psychosis for me, but deliriants have.

etkearne, I can understand your hesitancy to try drugs that simply change reality without pleasant effects, especially given that our conditions are altered states of reality in of themselves. However, I honestly have never encountered a better tool for recognizing delusion that Datura. It's very dangerous to use, however, if properly utilized, I believe that the experience is incredibly useful.

 

Thanks very much to both of you. You have each deepened my understanding of psychosis.

 

I feel as I should also mention an experience that I consider to be the closest analogue to schizophrenic psychosis: Sleep Deprivation.

I took a trip to France about six years ago and was forced to stay awake for 48 hours. I can easily say that those few hours before I literally fell asleep in the middle of the day doing things, was the closest approximation I can think of. I saw my reflection and thought it was a menacing man who was blocking my way (not knowing it was a mirror). I pictured people laughing at me menacingly in French and such.

It was a very strange experience.

 

etkearne's description of psychosis is perfectly accurate! and this is such an important discussion, there has to be some true experts out there on psychedelics (I don't do acid personally b/c of the meds im on), and some people who would like to share their opinion on marijuana use for this disorder (WHO KNOW ABOUT MARIJUANA AND DON"T JUST SMOKE IT!! ) that have feedback here!! Come on people this is a really good discussion!

And I know there are some psychonauts who practically have a PhD in psychodelics here.

 

If the University of Delaware offered a Graduate Program in Psychedelics, I would be tempted to switch from the Mathematics Program to that!

 

Thanks all. Extremely informative. It must be rough sometimes living with this, but you-all seem to have a pretty good handle on it.

 

Thanks for this. It is a very detailed peak into the world of psychosis. As for Bad Trips, have you ever intervened pharmacologically? I hear that an Atypical antipshycotic like zyprexa for instance will abort a trip and bring you back to baseline. I happen to have zyprexa, and I would love to keep it as a tool for future experiences...

 

I kind of feel like taking my Zyprexa to abort a trip is not going to provide me a learning experience. I have never used it so far. However, if a trip went so awry that I was going to do something dangerous, i would take it.

When i enter a psychedelic trip, i basically say "Well, here we go. I have no idea where this might end up, but i am going to stick with it to the end, and any bad experiences can only help me learn psychologically." again, I am not saying that it is a cop out to take sedatives to abort trips, but simply that MY personal motto is to not use them. But please don't take that as some sort of superiority type thing, it is not at all.

 

Sleep deprivation is a state similar to delirium, and I agree that it is similar in some aspects to psychosis; much less severe though, and I'm lethargic rather than stimulated and intense.

SeverineComplex, THC acts on the CB1 and CB2 receptors in the brain. The receptor sites are located all across the brain, including the hippocampus and amygdala; these would effect cognition/concentration and fear/paranoia respectively.
I can't imagine that the effects of THC would improve on the condition of present psychosis, but there is little information regarding the effects such drug use would have on the triggering of a psychotic episode.
Although, long-term and consistent marijuana use seems to affect a perceived normality in the brain of being high on THC. This new acceptable model for perception may effect the cognitive and functional abilities of a schizophrenic in a number of ways, depending on the manifested parameters and functions of the new model. I am currently doing some research into this hypothesis.

I wish I could do a psychedelic graduate program...
I guess my travels and experience will be my program.
I'll be writing my books the entire time I'm traveling anyway..
It's possible that if there were to be a widespread and persisting empirical study of psychedelics in the academic community, the government might recognize the value of these compounds. (Unlikely, I know, but I'm a romantic.)
Besides, even if not, the government could never erase the knowledge brought about by the research, and would be unable to repress further study. History has shown time and again that, despite all the powers working against knowledge, the truth persists and is eventually recognized.

Also, I agree that all aspects of a psychedelic trip should be experienced (except in cases of real physical or mental damage).
Bad trips make your mind more capable and resilient, just like enduring physical pain from work makes your body stronger.

 

I saw a show on Terrence McKenna and it sounded like he partook in a sort of psychedelic academia, traveling the Amazon in hunt of DMT containing plants and local traditions. It looked fascinating and he seemed happy. His brother is still living and he seemed nice as well. Mathematics is a good career and I am happy with it, but psychedelic studies would be interesting!

 

I understand. That's really what I'm trying to do. I am actually waiting for some 4-ACO-DMT, which will be my first psychedelic experience. I am SO afraid. I know alot of people say if your scared it means youre not ready, but I disagree with this. I have pretty severe anxiety at times, almost always related to the unknown and not being in ''control''. I understand that taking a psychedelic, I will be going into the unknown, and I will lose of some of the ''control'' as I know it. Hell sometimes I get anxious just when I smoke weed (but I always turn it around pretty quick). There will never be a day where I'm not afraid of doing this.

On the other hand, there will never be a day where I won't be curious and fascinated with psychedelics. I've been beating aroung the bush since my teenage years. I'm glad I didnt take anything back then, because I had no respect for them and people I hung around with were just doing anything they could get their hands on to get fucked up. Now, I'm 26, and I think I'm as ready as I'll ever be, so I'm going to take the plunge.

That being said, I doubt I'll end up taking anything, but I think just having zyprexa and clonazepam on hand will be reassuring.

 

sorry for double-posting, but if ever you are interested in the story about the amazon, I would like to reccoment his book ''True Hallucinations''. It basically talks about when he went there with his brother and two other people to go hunt for mushrooms and ayahuasca (and they eat a shit load of them while they are there). His brother actually has a (very weird) psychotic break because of all the mushrooms. It's a good read.