Saturnalia is almost here

Saturnalia is a Roman holiday that started on the 17th and lasted for 7 days which was about the time the Sun entered Capricorn. This also marked the period where the days were the shortest on the solstice itself and just after that mark was Sol Invictus where the days gradually began to get longer.

The Romans of course hosted games and it was a general carnival like atmosphere. In some case people switched roles. Also it was customary to do something nice for someone you didn't like during this season.

From Wikipedia:

"The Saturnalia was a large and important public festival in Rome. It involved the conventional sacrifices, a couch (lectisternium) set out in front of the temple of Saturn and the untying of the ropes that bound the statue of Saturn during the rest of the year. Besides the public rites there were a series of holidays and customs celebrated privately. The celebrations included a school holiday, the making and giving of small presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia) and a special market (sigillaria). Gambling was allowed for all, even slaves; however, although it was officially condoned only during this period, one should not assume that it was rare or much remarked upon during the rest of the year. It was a time to eat, drink, and be merry. The toga was not worn, but the pilleus (freedman's hat) was worn by everyone. Slaves were exempt from punishment, and treated their masters with disrespect. The slaves celebrated a banquet: before, with, or served by the masters. A Saturnalicius princeps was elected master of ceremonies for the proceedings. Saturnalia became one of the most popular Roman festivals which led to more tomfoolery, marked chiefly by having masters and slaves onstensibly switch places. The banquet, for example, would often be prepared by the slaves, and they would prepare their masters' dinner as well. It was license within careful boundries; it reversed the social order without subverting it."

Christmas certainly borrowed from this, but it also borrowed from the cult of Mithra. Mithra's birthday was Dec. 25 and he was born from a virgin and was expected to return to vanquish evil.

 

So... when Mithra returns he'll be vanquishing all those who celebrate Saturnalia then? I mean, since the Romans committed genocide against the Celtic tribes of Europe for over 600 years... right?

 

Mithra is from Persia.

 

I am aware of the origins of Mithra.

 

So I assume if I had announced the arrival of a Celtic holiday you wouldn't have made any snide comments?

 

You never know, I'm a well-known smart ass. And I have the uncanny ability to equally laugh at myself.

But really, I was only making supposition based on facts you posted.

Saturnalia = Roman Holiday
Romans wiped out Celts, ergo Rome = evil.
Mithra returns, vanquishes Romans.

Perfectly logical from my POV.

 

I thought the Romans never made it as far as Ireland?

 

The Celts were all over Britain and part of France and Spain. The Romans didn't eradicate them. Zoomie is exaggerating a bit. I also didn't say anything about the Celts anyway.

I was mentioning a prominant Pagan holiday which is appropriate for this season. It seems he has a chip on his shoulder against the Romans.

 

No. Read the first 5 words of your original post. Then read the entire post. The word "Pagan" isn't in there.

Yes, I do. They were barbaric. They slaughtered entire peoples who refused to participate in their civilization. They took what they wanted and killed anyone who got in their way. They destroyed an entire culture in the name of "progress", considered anyone not Roman "filthy barbarians" yet they were among the last people to invent soap and they washed their clothes in the urine of others. So they invented democracy. Look at George W. Bush and see where that got us. These are facts as sure as dinosaurs walked the earth yet no one seems to remember them. I've stated this here before, you must be new.

 

That's because it's in a Pagan forum. Should I announce every post of mine as a pagan post?

C'mon dude the Celts weren't a bunch of peaceful soap-using, inclusive group.

The point of my post was already stated. I don't particularly get into Celtic religion myself, but I don't trash them either.

Saturnalia is a legitimate pagan holiday. I don't confine myself to the stereotypical celtic inspired sabbats. If you have such a hard-on for all things Roman then that's your problem. Roman religion is a big part of what I do, and so is Greek religion, Egyptian, and Mesopotamian. So have fun with your Celts and I would suggest you don't worry about Saturnalia. See how easy it is?

Chill out.

 

I'm not now nor was I excited when I posted that. Just speaking the truth. Because, you know, this is supposed to be a freedom of speech website.

 

Did I tell you not to speak? I wonder if you feel as free to criticize Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and so on.

 

Romans =Evil?

That's a bit harsh. Many of your Pagan traditions came from the Romans. More then the Celts.
I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

 

Thank you!

 

I'm not judging people, I'm judging facts and history. There are no "Romans" these days to judge.

Hitler tried to start a lot of traditions too but no one seems to be celebrating them. Of course he failed to kill every Jew on the planet while the Caesars mostly succeeded in destroying the Celtic culture in a little over 300 years.

Perhaps if I were black or Cambodian, or Croatian and complaining about years of slavery, oppression and genocide you might see my point of view. I don't see the difference but I could be wrong.

Let's say, for example, that you were sitting at home with your wife and two small children, eating dinner and there was a knock at the door. You open it and there was a group of men out there who told you that your home was now property of their country. And your wife was no longer your wife. And they were going to decide which of them got to take your wife by tossing your son up in the air and whoever could pluck your son out of the air with the point of a spear got to keep your wife. And then after they killed your son, took your wife, gang raped your young daughter, they sent you to a foreign land to be sold as a slave. And then they moved on to your neighbors, friends, family, everyone you know, everyone in your country.

You'd probably be a little unhappy wouldn't you?

A sign of the times in pre-Christian Europe perhaps, but as common as it was obscene. Rome's treatment of all that was not Roman surpassed ANYTHING done in modern times, including genocide in Rwanda, Armenia, Cambodia, Germany and the Balkans. And it went on for hundreds of years. Study history below the surface. Not everyone was a hero. And the fact that it happened 2000 years ago does not make it forgiveable.

For the record, none of my Pagan traditions come from anything Roman.

 

Let's say, for example, that you were sitting at home with your wife and two small children, eating dinner and there was a knock at the door. You open it and there was a group of men out there who told you that your home was now property of their country. And your wife was no longer your wife. And they were going to decide which of them got to take your wife by tossing your son up in the air and whoever could pluck your son out of the air with the point of a spear got to keep your wife. And then after they killed your son, took your wife, gang raped your young daughter, they sent you to a foreign land to be sold as a slave. And then they moved on to your neighbors, friends, family, everyone you know, everyone in your country.

This happend to my family. My Grandfather lost ALL of his family to Hitler's sick mind! So in that case I's OK for me to hate all Christians & Germans?
I guess it's OK for all Blacks to hate whites?
They should hate me for apartheid because I am a white South African!

Celts were not ( as it was mentioned) all perfect little nature loving people either.

 

Caesars mostly succeeded in destroying the Celtic culture in a little over 300 years.

If he did that how can anyone "preserve" any tradition if it was destroyed?????

 

I would recommend you brush up your history. They did not destroy everything. The Celts were far from destroyed. The practiced their religion until the Christians forced them to drop it. Off the top of my head the only culture they actually eradicated were the Carthaginians, and that is a long story.

However, my original post was about a pagan holiday I celebrate and so do other pagans, and you came in to make a snide comment. If you feel you are above us, then go ahead and live your life in your superior way and have fun with your so-called Celt religion.

 

I don't hate anyone. I already said the Roman Empire is long since dead, there's no one left for me to hate if I did. You're being silly. I simply drew a parallel between the Roman Empire and the third reich. It's not OK to hate anyone and I never said I did. And I never said Celts were perfect either, but that doesn't make it ok for them to be exterminated.

No, your quote was about a Roman holiday and a Persian God. I'm sorry you feel my comment was snide, it was meant to be humorous. I'm also sorry that you have no sense of humour and we both contributed to blowing this out of proportion. I don't feel that my life is superior to anyone's, nor is my religion. And I never insulted either of you one the way you just insulted me. I don't feel that was necessary. And putting words in my mouth is neither polite nor honorable.

I'm also sorry that you feel you represent all Pagans with your point of view. You don't. We don't celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, or Saturnalia. We celebrate Yule, the oldest holiday of midwinter. But we don't stop others from doing so either. A little attempt at humor gets blown up into a debate on history, into a gang up on me. I think I'll just shut up next time.

However, if you'd like to settle this difference of opinion the way Celts and Romans used to, I'll be at Pennsic in August and happy to oblige.

 

There is still debate on who really celebrated Yule.

The "Celtic" sabbats are still up for debate as well.
The point is you are bashing a holiday from a group of people who were not so perfect. But you practice a religion from a group of people whos past wasn't so rosey either.