Slaves vs. Immigrants -Please Read!

I could use your oppinion.
We just finished watching a movie in class about immigrant workers and on my teacher's blog it said:

"In the long run, the migrant worker always was and always will be exploited. These people were and perhaps may be worse off than slaves. The slave is an investment and is protected."

I responded:

"I agree when you say immigrant workers were in the past and may continue to be exploited, but not when you say they were may be were worse off than slaves! I'm sure you know but, since slaves were considered property, this meant that, by law they were at the mercy of their owners. The immigrants could at least come and go if they pleased. Slaves babies were ripped away from their mothers when sold at birth, the were treated as objects to be raped whenever the master felt like it and sometimes the children produced by that were killed (they'd smack them into a tree, I kid you not).
The slaves all had to work just as hard as the imigrants, if not harder and they were not given a choice. It was either pick that cotton or get whipped (or whatever the master decided to do to you.

The immigarants made the choice to come to this country, and have the choice to put up with the conditions. The slaves were forced from their homes, brought over on horribly unsanitary ships chained together for months at a time.

The fact that the slaves were an investment to those people, only sometimes meant they got the protection & treatment of barn yard animals, and this fact should NOT be played down.

There is no way in the universe that slaves had it better than the immigrants."


Being of slave decent, I AM offended!! He said this OUT LOUD IN CLASS AND actually tried to get people to agree with him!!! I decided to respond to the blog instead of make a big scene in class. What's scarey was It seemed as if I was the only one who gave a damn! so I held my breath until my friend an I got into the hallway. I kinda feel like I should have said something in class..but maybe not, I might have blown up with words going everywhere, and who knows what that would have done to my grade. I was so pissed when I responded, did I leave anything out?

How would you have responded?

 

I takes a lot to get me mad to the point where my eye starts twichin'.
Some fool in class actually agreed with what he was saying (most likely acting as a yes man talking from his ass.)
Boy, if we had exchanged words in class and the wrong words would have came out his mouth, I feel like I might have jumped at the man.

 

What your teacher is getting at, I think, is the marxist idea that proletarian is not very different from a slave. In particular, the following lines from The Principles of Communism:

This is debatable, but not outrageous. You should not have "made a scene" in class but voiced your opinion and had a discussion.

You say,

Well, the problem here is that you generalize both groups. The idea that an immigrant (I should really just say proletarian, because this is really what this is about. immigration is only a relation that your teacher made) is not cared for is a valid one. In a sense, he has freedom so he has it better off than a slave. In another sense, however, what can he really do? If in order to just live (food and minimal shelter, such as what the slaves got) he has to work in harsh conditions (often in dangerous conditions), from the moment he wakes up to when he has to go to bed. How exactly is this better than being a slave? He works as hard, if not harder. His living conditions aren't better. He doesn't get more or better food. He doesn't get a better shelter. This isn't true of all immigrants (but many in the 30's, which I assume is the time you are talking about) and all slaves, but was often the case.

Also, you say

Could they? Yes, they had the freedom to refuse to work. But if they did that, they would simply die of starvation. In the 30's, it was very easy to find workers, and if such an immigrant refused to work, he would be replaced immediatly. There were no opportunities for "good jobs". So, it's like saying that a slave had the freedom to commit suicide.
Basically, I am not trying to say that you are wrong, but you are not dealing with some sort of unfair discrimination here. Just a contraversial issue which has two sides.

 

Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle"


You'll see what your teacher is getting at.

 

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Clearly, you are letting your personal family relationship to slaves cloud your judgement in this case. Like I said before, you the person was not saying anything rude, offensive or clearly incorrect. You have no reason to feel anger about this.

You are missing the point. The children of immigrants during the depression may have rights as US citizens, but they will have no money or time for an education. In many cases they would have to work. The main restriction on immigrants was not their status, but their lack of money. Which is exactly why I proposed to discuss prolitarians instead of immigrants.

 

*

 

Indeed, if he was talking about modern day immigrants, he is quite wrong since the US right now has adopted many Socialist ideas and is not the cold, heartless Capitalist system that it was in the 30's.

 

I am glad I never had your teacher. He sounds like a real prize.

I actually think the immigrants have it better than some Americans. Many Americans can't even afford health care, yet people can come over from Mexico -- even illegally -- and be treated for free at our hospitals. Of course it's free to everybody but the taxpayers, who ultimately get stuck with the bill.

I don't think immigrant work in America is slavery at all. Unlike slavery, immigrants are not forced to labor. If they want, they can just come over and leach off the system, which many (not all) of them do.

In my opinion, your teacher is full of it, and his rhetoric is indicative of the socialist/globalist indoctrination found in many schools/colleges across America.

 

Lodog & syntax: I'm no fool, I know what he's getting at. But can you say you know where I'm coming from?

I'm WTF? dude, I never even knew the people in my family who were slaves. I disagree, I don't think my judgment is being clouded. I don't think you understand why I'm angry, It's not him (at least I don't think he did it on purpose) but in the way he played down (or softened) slavery to make it seem that it wasn't that big a deal is why I'm upset. It may not be offensive to you, because you probably don't have to deal with the racism aftermath that still lingers in the people today, this is where it all started! You don't know about the racism that exists even between the pepole of the african american race, that all started there. Did you know that on some occasions the masters would have sex with the slave woman to make lighter children to work in the house, they were still slaves, but better slaves because they were lighter! I'm kinda light skinned myself and All along growing up I've caught hell from ignorant people of my own race because before they would even meet me, they would think I thought I was better because I'm light skinned (and that's the PG version I'm gonna give you). This shit still exists, And it all started then. You are incredibly wrong to say that it was "clearly not incorrect" you need to check the facts then you come and tell me when the immigrants went through some worse shit than this! Damn. My mother told me that if history is not told it will be forgotten, then it is doomed to repeat itself. Already not even 150 years later, People are starting to let it go soft, and pretend it wasn't that big of a deal (the immigrants had it worse *barf*). I bet you'd be whisteling a different tune if it happened to whatever race of people you are.

I wonder if our generation's grandchildren will think the iraqi's had it worst than the jewish people durring the holocaust...(try to make the connection, they are both bad, but one is clearly further than the other)

you people sicken me.
The ignorance is so outrageously rampid today, AND no one cares, I almost wanna cry...

 

You said you are of slave descent, meaning that you have a family relationship to slavery, even if you didn't personally know them. It's still an emotional attachment, and if it wasn't you wouldn't mention it here. By saying that immigrants during the depression (or prolitarians in general) had it worse than slaves, nobody is making slavery seem less significant. What you fail to understand is that at that time, immigrants did go through the same horrors as slaves.

Let's look at each point of difference you are describing.

First of all, you say that certain female slaves were raped. Well, it was really common (and I don't mean one or two cases) for employers to sexually abuse or demans sexual favours of female immigrant workers. But you'd say, "Can't they just refuse, and get another job?" Well. No, they can't. Remember that another job was nearly impossible to find, and if they did find one, it would most likely have the exact same condition, harassment included.

You say that racism towards African Americans exists today because of slavery. This is true. This is also true of immigrants. You may only see your side of the story here, but discrimination against immigrants is, in many parts of North America, no lesser than the one for blacks. In fact, in the area where I live, saying something bad about a black person is a huge taboo, while insulting Jews, Asians, Latin people, etc. is still often allowed. Where do you think this racism came from if not the horrible treatment of immigrants in the past? If a white person's father was an employer who was allowed to treat Chinese people as bad as slaves, won't his son treat them as such?

Slaves were often beaten, whipped and otherwise physically abused. True. So were many workers in factories during the depression.

Slaves were often kept in poor living conditions, almost like animals, or even worse. The same is true of immigrants. Some would have their own apartments in parts of town where an apartment is no better than a barn, others would not even have that.

The irony here is that while you are so terribly offended by what was said about your people, you yourself "soften" the treatment of prolitarians. I don't think my opinion would differ if I was of a different race. Unlike you, I am basing my opinion on knowledge of history rather than emotional response. If the fact that you are African American makes you "whistle a different tune" then this is exactly what you are doing.

Again, the same as above. You are the one going soft and pretending that immigration was not a big deal. Your teacher and I did not say anything about the conditions of slaves. We never said it was not a big deal! We are saying that the injustice that immigrants went through is a big deal.

 

NO, I mension it because I care.

It's not correct in the way you put it to say that I have an emotional attachment. However, the only emotion I have towards this whole situation is my worry about the future of ALL people if phrases like the one my teacher made (though small, and only slightly off, it packs a huge punch) get taught to the younger generations. Who knows what effect it will have. Who knows how it might spiral into in the future. I'd be upset if they said the Jewish people had it better than the modern day iraqi people.. I guess I shouldn't have mensioned about my ancestors being slaves because it is irrelevant, and I see why you think I'm mad for that particular reason.

And again, I'm am not trying to make the situation the immigrants dealt with and currently deal with seem insignificant in any way. My purpose is to point out that the difference, why they are not equal, and why the horrers involved in situation dealt with by the immigrant can not supersede that of the slave.

Despite the surroundings or situation of the immigrant (and yes, they may suck), they came to this country for the opportunity of sucess through economical progression. No one in the U.S.A. (or the world for that matter) is garenteed the good life, do you watch the news? Shit happens to people, and all the time. But it's not the rule that bad stuff must happen all the time (although there are some socialistic systems on the loose in our country in which that is not the case, because suffering is a direct effect...anyway). On the other hand, no matter how hard the slaves worked there was no hope for the conditions to get better, it's like communism, and that was the rule.

Where did I say that?

I know the job situation for immigrants sucks, but this is not an economical issue.

I understand this, and again and again I'm in no way trying to play it down.

You have to understand racism comes from ignorance and then hatred because of that ignorance, not just dircetly from the ignorance and hatred people had of the immigrants, but generally. Racism comes when people have the idea that they are better than someone else, not talking about their skills which is based on merit, but because of the by the way they were born into the world.

I guess I was trying to say this with the effects of this example:

anyway

What Irony? There's No Irony!

Look here,
A while ago I might have gotten pissed off at you because you are assuming something about me by the statement I made (and you can't help it if you misunderstood my words, and I yours), but this is not about your thoughts about or feelings towards me or mine of you so I digress.

But in responce to what you said here, You must know what I'm gonna say...

Referring to my first statment I'd directed towards my professor in the first place: I was saying that I TOTALLY AGREE THAT THE IMMIGRANTS PUT UP WITH POOR CONDITIONS! IT IS A PROBLEM! I'm not turning my back to that, I can see it, it's in my face. Now...*breathes in*

This thread is not about how to help and remember the immigrants. We'll do another thread for that.. I'm making a case is for a strong factual representation of what slavery is, and what it was then, (and no not just for black people... Yes this is not just about the black slaves... did you know there were other races of people enslaved? well this is about them too my friend)

You know, the other day in class we were watching a movie, It was like Roots, but the history was about the mexican immigrants who came to texas. (this is why my teacher said the things he did.) If you only knew the way I felt about what I'd seen...but you don't. Don't think I'm not aware.

I am sooo fucking hardcore about human rights issues, theres not a soft spot on me...okay?..okay so, that part was about me... :& sorry, anyway,​

Long story short (and if you can't get it this time, draw a ven diagram)

Cons for being an immigrant: crappy conditions

Cons for being a slave: crappy condition, no freedom(they might as well be caged... sometimes they were)

 

Considering that I am from a Jewish descent, yes, I do know.

I am sorry, I don't mean to offend you when I say the following, but you have to learn how to listen. If not to your teacher, then at least to me. I posted 2 long and detailed posts explaining exactly how immigrants during the depression and prolitarians in general had no freedom exactly in the same sense as you describe. No freedom, at all. Look at this from an immigrant's perspective. Let's take a case study: this is a 20 year old woman, coming from China with her husband and daughter.

In China: "We have no food. We are forced to work in sweatshops because of our pretending-to-be-communist government. Basing on all the information I can get at the moment, the only logical deduction I can make is that the United States is a land of richness and prosperity, where I will be treated right. I want a good future for my child. We are moving to America."

Since it is illegal to leave China at the time, this woman makes arrangements and gets smuggled into the States. She has no American money, and a child to support. Luckily (and this wouldn't always happen) she has relatives in New York and her family and her move in with them.

"Now, I have to find a job to support my family. I search all over the place, there are no jobs! After several months of searching, I finally find a job at a car factory. Assembly line worker. They also hire my husband. This is the best job around. If we work from early in the morning until late at night, we'll be able to make enough money to feed ourselves and our child, maybe even pay for a rent."

She works at the factory for a few weeks. She is a free woman. She is free to leave the factory and starve. She is 20 years old and quite attractive. The manager notices her and asks her to suck his cock. She is a free woman, she is allowed to refuse. If she refuses, the manager is allowed to fire her (remember, this is before there were laws for these kinds of things). There is a chance she'll find another job, but it is slim, and there is a very high chance that the same, or even worse will happen. She can't risk it, she has a child at home. She performs sexual favours for her employer every day for the next 3 years, in addition to hard work.

What could she have done? Where was her fucking freedom? How was she better than a slave?

Read this. Think about it. You say that

I am sorry, but in a thread comparing slavery and immigrants, we are allowed to speak about the immigrants. There is not a single person in the world today who doesn't understand how hard the conditions were for the slaves. You think you are discovering America when you are telling this things to us? Do you think there is a single person on this forum for whom this is news? Do you think your teacher thinks that slaves were just unpaid servants? Think again! We are not as ignorant as you may believe.

Just learn to listen, and try to understand that nobody is saying that what you say about slaves is not true. Your original problem was with your teacher comparing slaves to immigrants, and the comparisson holds. Sorry.

 

First of all, I listened, and disreguarded because I felt it wasn't a stong enough argument of you to make, now I see I must explain everything. There's always other options, even if it means living off the land...duh. It wasn't in the job description for the woman in your story. She still could have left. The slave would have been beaten, killed or whatever the master decided he wanted to do.

I'm giving up on you if you cant understand the value of freedom.

the only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history

 

I am not saying that. A truly wise man can learn even from those with less knowledge than him. Lower your walls of arrogance, and learn what the world has to teach you.

I am sorry you are giving up on me. It's your loss. You started this thread with the intention to have people tell you that your teacher is an asshole and you are right. Since then, you have done nothing but repeat your position over and over and ignore everything that's been said to you. You left this thread no wiser than you were when you started it.

A Zen story can be applied to your current condition.

Indeed, this is true of all knowledge. Your head must first be empty in order for it to be filled with something. If you come into a forum, a classroom, or a discussion with a fellow human being full of your own ideas and iron-strong in your beliefs, you will not learn.

If you have done so for your entire life, I don't care how old you are, I doubt you learned much in your life and are still a child. Sorry if this offends you.

 

it doesnt really matter who is right or wrong just the fact that the teacher expressed an opinion....(which in my country hes not meant to do) on the matter which could have offended other people.........if he had said that migrants had an easy life he might have offended people of migrant decent..
he should have stayed out of it

 

Not all slaves were treated badly. In fact, it was more common for slaves be treated decently, although they were considered property which is never right, than for them to be beat and whipped. Because they were treated as property, only the rich could really afford to do that. The poorer farmers only had 2 or 3 slaves and had to treat them well. Lets say you had to have a car to get to work. Would you smash it up purposely because you have more in your garage? No. That's kind of a bad example, but these people needed slaves for their economy (like it or not, it's true), just like you would need the car to get to work.

Immigrants during the 1800s and early 1900s were basically slaves in the fact that their entirely livelihood was based on that one job and they could easily be replaced. True, they could move and risk not having a job, but slaves could also risk running away.

Immigrants also had some very cruel things done to them. Say Bob was working in sausage factory. Bob slips and falls into the vat of meat being ground up. Do you think they stop the vat? Nope, Bob becomes a sausage. That happened more commonly than you would think.

I'm not saying immigrants had it worse off than slaves, but you can't say that slaves had it worse off than immigrants.

 

I can see by what you said here and especially by what you posted directly before this that you didn't even read what I wrote. Don't waste my time. And then you go on with your assumptions about why I started this thread, when I clearly stated them before in the posts you didn't read. And now for some reason your telling me about Zen?! Your way out of your league grasshopper... If you too lazy to give something your full attention, don't bother getting involved in the first place.


Now I'm sure you won't read this either...

you've cleared everything out of your head including your brains

 

This is true. But also Not all immigrants are treated badly either.

In the end, all I'm pointing out is I think that freedom is better than captivity. Some people just don't agree... Sure I think there nuts and they'd change their mind if it were themselves in the situation personally. But people are entitled to their oppinions, no matter how ill and potentially dangerous they are.

Poor Bob..
Yikes

 

I think the point your teacher was trying to make is this: Immigrants are technically free. Than means the upstanding people like you and me don't have to worry about them; if they get treated badly, well then they should get a new job, or go home. Because they're 'free', they can easily be fired or whatever. Immigrant workers can be worked to death (and often were), because they are only paid by the hour (i.e. for the work they actually do). Slaves, on the other hand, are owned. If you have a horse, you don't flog it till it dies from exhaustion; you work it as hard as is sustainable, for as long as possible. This means that the slave owner has a reason to look after his slaves. Here's an 18th century dictum that may help: "A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast" (written on a horse trough in York).

It is absurd to try and make general statements about who suffered more. The point is that "freedom" isn't all it's cracked up to be; what matters is the situation on the ground. I can tell you i'd rather be owned than rented!