Solar Power

Solar power on the cheap
Solar Power

Many people are beginning to become very interested in solar power -- and for good reasons.

Most of us know that the coming times are not offering any comfort to those of us who watch these types of things.
Loss of power can be very critical for one's survival in the coming days.

Solar power is power that we control with no meter running to make sure that you give “the powers that be” their pound of flesh. The real consideration with solar power is that you need to become conscious of the power you use and what you really need. Reminds me of a story of how I got 2 100-watt panels for real cheap. A woman moved here to the mountains of New Mexico and had her roof covered with solar panels and all the necessary hardware to live off the grid. After spending a several thousands of dollars doing this, she discovered that she does not have enough power to run her clothes dryer. So she sold her solar panels and got hooked up to the grid. The problem came in when she did not consider what her power use was!

All electric products come with what is known as a UL tag. This tag gives the power consumption of the product.
If you are looking at a TV, and the UL tag says it uses 50 watts (this would be a small TV), the power to use that device is 50 watts. But what does that really mean to someone who is going solar?

Let’s say that you have a set up like I do: I have 500 watts of solar panels and 8 large, deep cell, RV/Marine batteries.
With this you could use 500 watts per hour and never run out of power.
What would that look like?
50 watts, TV running all the time
180 watts, 2 laptop computers
150 watts, water pump

For your own design, consider what you really need and what you can live without. Just do the math. If you add up what you need to have running and that is 900 watts at a time, you will need 1000 watts of panels and 10 deep cell batteries. Most people who adopt the living-off-the-grid lifestyle can live off 500 watts very comfortably. TV, Radio, water pump, lights, etc.

By the way, we light our house with very efficient DC fluorescent lighting, available from RV parts stores. A 15 watt light keeps the bedroom well lit and a 45 watt light makes the living room/kitchen/dining room bright.

With this said, you could see there is not a lot of extra power for this type of system, but it is very livable! I know a guy who lives in Mexico. He is off the grid and his wife has a clothes dryer, washing machine, satellite TV, sprinkler system, alarm system, flood lights, dishwasher, hair dryer, well pump, to name a few of the modern conveniences they enjoy. But the real rub is what it cost him to use all those items by solar -- over $100,000.00.

You see, the more modern conveniences you require, the more it’s going to cost. A system like mine cost $2000. What does it include?

Solar Panels: 500 watts of solar panels
Storage: 8 deep-cell batteries

Wire for batteries and solar panels ( about $200: Don't skimp on this -- the lower the wire gauge, the more power gets to your batteries. You can voltage with thin wire. The loss on 12-gauge wire is 1/10 volt per foot, but 6-gauge wire only looses 1/20th of a volt per foot. This is also a good reason to locate the solar panels, batteries and house as close as possible to each other to reduce line loss).

Voltage Regulators: I know there are many out there that sell real fancy voltage regulators with all sorts of high tech stuff. I have used two different types and in both cases neither was as efficient as a good old Ford resistor-type voltage regulator. The old (from the 60ies) Ford voltage regulator with a resistor. These are easy to identify because they have a wire resistor on the back of the housing. This looks like a thin rod with wire wrapped around it. What this does is diverts any voltage overflow to the ground. This is all the real expensive digital ones do, anyway.

Batteries: Place your batteries as close together as possible. You will have to make your own 6 gauge (I prefer welding cable for this because it is very flexible and strong) battery cables. Use just enough wire to make the connection, the shorter the better. Now, this is very very important -- you need a good earth ground. Get a ground rod from the hardware store. It should be around 6 foot tall. As close to the batteries as possible, drive the stake into the ground. If you live in an area that has alkaline soil (mostly out west) get some Epsom salts and dilute them in water and use the solution to wet the ground as you drive the stake into the ground. This will do two things:
1) make the soil easy to drive the ground rod into the earth
2) Increases the conductivity of the earth ground. (It helps if twice a year you re-wet the ground with Epsom salts to keep the conductivity up.)

Check you batteries! This means that you need to physically inspect the batteries and connection daily! Period, end of story, no arguing! If you want your batteries to last they need to be tended daily, water (distilled) in the batteries when they need it and check connections. This is important, because overnight the connections can become corroded and this kills your power. You'll need a cheap battery brush (around $5 from Harbor Freight) to keep the terminals clean. Don't get lazy about this -- the life of your batteries is at stake. Tend them well and they will last for years, treat them badly and they will last a few months.

Where to point the solar panels? The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Because of this you will need to follow the sun. If your house is not pointing the right way make and easel for your panels to point the right way from the ground or a platform. When we built this house we made the roof have a single pitch, this means the house is 17 high at one side and 12 foot at the other. This, along with the fact that the slant of the roof is facing south makes for a good arrangement. All I had to do was put the panels on the roof and they were pointed in the right direction, however we tweaked the panels so some pointed slightly to the east, some slightly to the south, and others slightly to the west. This helps get the sun all day long.

How to get batteries on the cheap:
Fork Lift batteries can be had cheap as well as golf cart batteries. These batteries have most of the time become mineralized. This means that the area on the lead plates are coated with minerals. These minerals interfere with the battery’s ability to store electricity. This can happen from using tap water to refill the batteries. Their loss is your gain.
Here's why: The reconditioning of wet cell batteries is easy, but care must be taken.
Things needed:

Rubber Gloves
Protective Glasses
Battery Acid (get from auto parts stores)
EDTA ( a chealator that can be had from health food stores)
Distilled water
Battery charger
Baking soda (not baking powder)

Take the battery to be reconditioned and remove the battery acid by pouring it out (you can pour it out into a 5-gallon bucket). Place 1 cup of baking soda in the bucket to neutralize the acid. You'll notice that the stuff coming out of the battery is nothing like what new clean acid looks like – it will be full of chunks of minerals and cloudy looking. With that done, put distilled water into the battery and place it on a charger for 4 hours on a low amp charge. Come back in 4 hours and pour the contents of the battery into the bucket and notice what comes out -- more battery poopies!
Then take 1 tablespoon of EDTA (open the capsules) and dilute in 1 gallon of distilled water. Mix well and put this in the battery to fill it up. Place the battery on a battery charger and use the low amp setting and forget about it for the next 12 hours. Then pour the contents of the battery into the bucket and notice what comes out -- more poopies! Then fill it again with distilled water and put the caps back on and shake it good. Pour out the contents and still more poopies.
Then fill the battery with battery acid and give it a low amp charge and the battery will come up to over 13 volts (most of the time).
My experience was this, we reconditioned 10 batteries and all but one came up to spec. These batteries were having trouble staying above 11 volts. The one that did not pass had black chunks coming out of it, so for future reference if you see black chunks coming out of a battery in most likely not worth reconditioning.
You can find used batteries all over the place.
Car repair business
Golf courses
Warehouses
Dumpsters
Dumps
to name a few.

Most of the time these places get a $5 core credit for the dead battery, not withstanding those you can find for free. Just offer them $5 cash per battery and recondition them and if you reconditioned 10 of them you should get at least 8 up to snuff. That is the average I have seen and if you paid $50 for 10 batteries and got 8 to work your net cost is less than $10 each with the reconditioning. Consider that “Wallyfart” sells their large capacity deep cell batteries for $80 + a $7 core charge (and that is a real deal)! You could bank bank batteries for the future with out spending much money.

Inverters:

Inverters are used to change 12 volt DC power to 120 volt AC house current. You will need these to use your free power with your devices. Here is the rub… many buy inverters that are too large in wattage for their use. By this I mean that if you are going to be using an inverter for a TV that uses 100 watts and it is hooked up to a 500 watt inverter, then there is a waste of 400 watts that is draining out of your batteries, but not being used to power anything.
Carefully consider what you’ll be using and buy inverters that match what you’ll be using.

For example, a 100 watt TV should use a 150 watt inverter. Don’t get tricked into buying a powerhouse 1000 or worse 2500 watt inverter. The minute you power up the inverter it starts drawing 2500 watts no mater what you do. So chose carefully what your needs will be and match those needs with the appropriate inverter(s).

Also on inverters, inverters make an inaudible noise called EMI, electro magnetic interference. This makes a harsh noise on AM and Shortwave radios. We find if we want to listen to Alex Jones on shortwave, it means turn the inverters off.
I know that they sell noise filters, but most are only designed for mild AC EMI, not EMI from an inverter. If you don’t plan to use an AM radio or Shortwave, these inaudible noises won’t bother you.

How to wire the house: from the batteries run heavy gauge wire to 12 volt cigarette lighter plugs (female type). Inverters and most 12 volt devices use this type of plug.
Place the female plug through the floor where you know you’ll be using it.

Avoid using long runs of wire. Remember line losses. Consider carefully where you place the following.

Battery box
Solar panels
House wiring

You need to consider what you’ll be using
Where you’ll be using it
The most efficient way to do it.

Put your plans on paper and consider what you are doing.

Make safety your first priority. Wear rubber gloves and goggles when handing batteries and there is no such thing as safe electricity, use care in all you.

Visit my blog for past postings
http://aloneinnewmexico.blogspot.com/

 

wow, useful info. I was looking for it. thx

 

but your blog no longer exist

 

Yes that is true, I don't care I like hippie forums better


Peace
Dan

 

Would you care to make some changes to this?

 

No, we get along very well with what we have, however it's all about what you expect and want to do.

I admit that we have small expectations, just scale up for what you want.

Peace
Dan

 

ok, seems you didnt take that opportunity to fix what you said, here you go.

You have ZERO clue of which you speak.

To use 500 watts per hour and never run out you would need to produce 500 watts of power per hour and never stop.

For you to say you have 500 watts of panels, and you can supply 500 watts of power means you have photo voltaic panels that put out 100% of their rating, which none do.

It also means you must live where there is 24 hours of sunlight each and everyday of the year, and that it is always peak sunlight.

It also means that all your wiring, connections and equpiment are 100% perfect and you have zero loss in any of it, also something that isn't possible.

So, either you are talking out your ass and none of this is true, or you are using a system that you really have no clue how it operates which brings into question as to why you would offer advice on it in the first place.

 

Have a nice day

 

so, in other words, you have no response to the fact that you spoke untruthfully?

It's really funny coming from someone with a sig about truth.

Here's one for you...

Those who ignore the truth, are ignorant.

Trying to encourage people to use solar and other non-polluting sources is a good and admirable thing, when done with facts. When done without facts all it does is turn people off the issue.

Some person comes along and reads your post and does all the math (according to your numbers), runs out and buys what they think they need based on what you said will conclude that it is all worthless and a crock of shit made up by tree hugging liberals who know nothing.

So, if you do have a system, and you want to share your enthusiasm about it, find out what it is first and then share your insights into it.

 

I don't argue here, this is what I have and never have any problems with power.
That for the info though

 

he wasnt asking for a arguement he was asking for you to elaborate on your OP.

I have been digging into solar a lot as of late as i am considering investing in a small set up and what CT said is 100% fact.although it could be added that you should also factor in the extra power draw ac appliances use over dc appliances.

people considering solar deserve details from people who have systems. not vague claims with no specifics to their energy consumption,hours of sunlight,battery banks etc.

 

waitta minute a couple weeks ago you said you had 4 DCB's and now you say you have eight.

you seem to be full of statements that dont add up.

 

I live in this house and use this system, of course the sun does not shine all day long but neither do I.

We live modestly and this system does all we need.

If you know better please explain better than I.

I know 3 people around here in the land of sunshine who use the same system with no problems other than snow covering the panels in the winter. .

PS Not a political anything.

The wackoo liberal tree hugger thing was not necessary, you don't know me any more than I know you.

If you live off of solar and have done this then explain, but if I'm the guy you want to beat up today then have at it. One or the other, explain or ridicule, either way I guess we'll get to see who you really are with out name calling.

 

Perhaps you should re-read what that said instead of taking it as you being insulted... You are right, I don't know who you are, and it doesn't matter the slightest in this conversation.

I already explained why in general that what you said was wrong. In fact, I did it in a fair amount of detail for someone who has the slightest amount of knowledge about these things.

One of the first things you learn when dealing with pv panels is that what they are rated at, is not what they put out except under clinical conditions. In the real world, everything from atmospheric changes, wind, dust, rain, tend to limit the actual amount of power you get, even at the peak period of sunlight for your area, you will not get the full rated amount of power.

Therefore 500 watt panels, never give 500 watts of power per hour.

Take into further consideration the fact that the sun does not stay in one position all day relative to your panels, and you lose even more power off the rating. Even if you have a tracking setup so your panels are always 100% perpendicular to the sun's rays, as it gets lower on the horizon, it is traveling through more air, dust, pollution etc and has its power potential cut.

That is just on the PV end of the system. Then, you need to consider that there are line losses in your wire, no matter how it is sized, more loss in each connection you have, then the inefficiencies of whatever it is that the power goes to or through. You mention some of these things in your post, but totally ignored them in your direct statements of what 'your' 500 watt system could do.

Lets ignore all that for a moment shall we? Lets go to the batteries... also not 100% efficient. What that means, is you will need to put more power into them, then you can take out. This depends upon the type of battery you are talking about, but for the sake of this discussion, we'll say your battery is 90% efficient. That means for every 100 watts you put into it, you will only get out 90 (on average as it also depends on rates of charge and discharge).

So even on that basis, if your 500 watt panels had an output as rated, and all your wiring and connections and equpiment were 100% efficient, you still would not be able to use 500 watts of power and never run out.

To address that issue. Insolation is a measure of the available energy from the sun and is expressed in terms of "full sun hours" (i.e.4 full sun hours = 4 hours of sunlight at an irradiance level of 1000 watts per square meter). Obviously different parts of the world receive more sunlight than others, so they will have more “full sun hours” per day.

In Albuquerque the average insolation is 6.77 hours, the low (winter) is 6.21 hours, the high (summer) is 7.17.

That means if your panels were capable of putting out their rated 500 watts of power, on a perfect day in the middle of summer, you would get approximately 3585 watts over the day, or on average of 149 watts per hour. Lose 10% to the batteries and you are looking at around 135 watts left. Lose another 10% (thats being highly optimistic) due to line loses and connections and such, and you are looking at a maximum of 122 or so watts per hour that you could use.


Now that I have explained this twice, and pointed out that the name calling was in your imagination of what I wrote and not what I actually wrote I hope you grasp why I consider it such a bad thing for people to act with 'authority' in spouting a 'truth' that they have no actual facts to back up.

 

Chronic Tom,

thank you for a detailed explanation!

Mrdude46,

you shouldn't feel insulted , you brought up this topic and thanks to youand other participants and the discussion you had here, I've learned more about it.


:cheers2:

 

I too thank CT. solar energy is one of those things that is not cut and dry. it certainly isnt cheap either.

in another thread by mr dude he spoke of how he acquired some of his panels from someone who tried solar and didnt get the results they expected,more than likely from failing to fully understand the system,its output and stiorage capacity.

yet he starts a thread with about a 1/4 of the information one would need to figure out what kind of system they would need and paints a rosy picture of his system that has now been proven to be untrue.

while the system may be adequate for his meager needs the numbers he used do not add up.

It seems to me that when praising something as exspensive as solar,one should try and go into as great of detail as possible so people dont invest thousands on your word only to find out your word wasnt quite the truth.

but then again,maybe thats what he wants,in the market for more used panels are we mr dude?

 

Screw having my own solar panels.
I'll wait for this to be EU wide.

HuffPost:
Desertec seeks to transform Saharan Africa into a solar hub for Europe by constructing a supergrid of concentrating solar thermal plants (CSP) on 6,500 square miles of North African desert. They claim their scheme could eventually meet much of the continent's electricity needs.
Read the whole story: solveclimate.com

Solar initiative already has crucial political backing
It has already gained a crucial measure of political support, with UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown and French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who just helped establish the Mediterranean Union to work with countries in north Africa and the Mediterranean region, recently giving it the thumbs-up.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/sahara-solar-project.php

 

i saw a video on that. its so,so british..lol

 

I think a lot of it may come from different perspectives on the issue.

For someone in southern states, where they have insane numbers like 6-8 hours of average peak sunshine, knowing isn't as important to getting it work as it is here.

For some reason I can't find the hours of peak sun for us here right now, but it is around 2.77.

To give you numbers that you can compare directly;
Albuquerque gets on average of 4.97 kWh/m2/day, the low being 2.5 in December and the high being 6.94 in June

In toronto (which is about 300 miles south of me) the average is 3.44 kWh/m2/day, with the low at 1.2 in December and the high in June of 5.83

Knowing any of this is totally un-important to setting up a system at home, if you are getting salvaged parts and slapping them together and making due the best you can.

If you actually wish to understand what you are doing, and maybe help others though, then actually knowing these things is 100% necessary.

On a side note to all of this. For the cost of new panels right now, solar is not a good way to go, no matter where you live. The technology is there, but it is by far priced too high for what you get out of it. Notice I said for new panels...

By far, the cheapest, most reliable and the simplest to maintain are wind systems. This may not apply if you live somewhere that has 200 foot trees and no way to use them as posts, but in terms of power for money, wind is the way to go.


As for the idea of commercial solar farms and such... If you're only concern is over the source of your power being 'clean' then by all means wait for the grid to switched over to a clean supply.

However, most people that I know who are looking into or using solar/wind/water, are doing so for multiple reasons, such as not being dependent on a centrally controlled power system, and not spending money that you have to work to get in order to have lights and such.

 

I'm going to take that as a compliment.
Even though I don't think it is British.

To strengthen and intensify the initiatives and endeavours of the TREC-Network, we have – with support from His Royal Highness Prince Hassan bin Talal and the German Association for the Club of Rome – created a new organization called the DESERTEC Foundation (DF) which is based in Berlin, Germany.

http://www.desertec.org/en/about/founders/