Soul Proof: Is There A Hell? Part 2

**This is an email/newsletter that I wanted to share with this board.**

"Soul Proof" newsletter Sept. '09
with Dr. Mark Pitstick
www.soulproof.com

Is There a Hell? Part 2

I received a few irate letters after last month's newsletter about
"Is There a Hell?" I had assumed that many of my readers had read
"Soul Proof" and understood the various facets of this topic. My
mistake.

So here's part 2 of what is a very important discussion. Many
free-thinking people discount any notion of a Supreme Being because
of orthodox teachings that it's possible to suffer in eternal hell
fires.

From one perspective, there are clearly temporary, self-induced
hells--but not eternal fiery ones due to Divine judgment or decree.
Souls that inhabited humans like Hitler usually must sleep for
eons before they can face the Light. Their transgressions were too
grievous to glimpse and they indeed suffer hell as their life
review trickles out over time. They face a long rehab and
counseling process to heal a soul that accompanied such an
imbalanced body/mind.

But eternity is a very long time and even these can enter the Light
when they have truly repented, made amends, forgiven themselves,
and ask.

Even when there is orthodox religious training to the contrary,
those with near-death experiences, NDErs, do not describe death as
an entrance into either a fiery hell or golden streets. Instead,
they commonly describe dying as a transition, an entry into a
higher state of consciousness. Other comparisons are to a reunion,
homecoming, awakening, graduating, or escaping from jail. They
don't view God as a punishing, judgmental despot but, rather, a
totally fair and loving Presence that works with each soul no
matter how sinful or awful their deeds while on earth. As many
NDErs put it, you are one with the One.

Near-death experiences--NDEs--usually engender more enlightened
theological views. Having glimpsed the Light, these near-death
survivors know firsthand that Creator completely and always
forgives and understands. They have experienced an almost
unbearable degree of love and acceptance and know that the Infinite
is not vengeful and judgmental. Most NDErs no longer fear eternal
punishment in hell, nor believe any such place exists.

In "The Light Beyond", Raymond Moody, M.D., Ph.D., states, "One
NDEer I spoke to had been a minister of the fire and brimstone
variety. It wasn't infrequent, he said, for him to tell his
congregation that if they didn't believe the Bible in a certain
way, they would be condemned to burn eternally. When he went
through his NDE, he said the being of light told him not to speak
to his congregation like this anymore. But it was done in a
nondemanding way. The being just implied that what he was doing was
making the lives of his congregation miserable. When this preacher
returned to the pulpit, he did so with a message of love, not fear."

When I asked him about the concepts that heaven and hell are levels
of consciousness, degrees of closeness to or separation from God
and knowledge of our real selves, Aramaic scholar Neil
Douglas-Klotz, Ph.D., replied: "This is close to the original
Aramaic. The Christian concept of hell is not found in the Hebrew
or Aramaic language. The word usually translated from the Hebrew as
hell--'sheol'--means a chaotic passageway through which the soul
passes after the body goes back to its various elements. The notion
of hell as some sort of eternal punishment would not have been
known or even understood by Jesus and his listeners. It was not in
their native language."

Some people question whether God embraces everyone, especially
those committing morally reprehensible acts like rape, murder, and
molestation. In "Lessons from the Light", Ken Ring, Ph.D., states
that the answer by NDErs is unqualified: everyone gets to enter the
Light. This runs counter to some teachings and some understandably
question, "Even Hitler?"

Of this, Ring states, "I remember an answer that was given to this
query by an NDEr friend of mine who, as a child, had suffered
severe sexual and physical abuse from her father. When she found
herself in the Light, she asked it telepathically, 'Does everyone
come here?' She was told 'Yes.' Then, she herself asked the very
question that represents the limit for most people: 'Even Hitler?'
'Yes.' And, then, pushing the Light even further, she found herself
asking, 'Even my father?' Again, 'Yes.'"

I hope this information helps you glimpse that Source Energy really
is all loving, all wise, and all present. You are part and parcel
of this phenomena.

And, no matter what your past transgressions, you're no Adolph Hitler.

So relax, get comfortable in your earth suit, and enjoy this
amazing walk in the woods with Great Spirit that we call life on
earth.

**************************************************
Remember, my friends, that a vast amount of religious, clinical,
scientific and firsthand evidence convincingly proves that we each
really are immortal spiritual beings. This is the good news that
sets us free, that helps us make sense of what often seems to be a
chaotic world.

We each truly are "soul proof", just as a watch is shock proof
or water proof. Our real selves do not die, cannot be hurt, and
can handle any outward circumstances with style. Life is indeed
a totally safe and magnificent adventure amidst eternity.

This lifetime is just one chapter in a never-ending book. The
book is full of adventure, romance, suspense, challenge, and
sometimes tragedy. But every person's book ultimately has a happy
ending. You and Creator are co-authors of your book. You can make
it a Pulitzer Prize winner, no matter what is happening around you.

 

Just wanted to touch on a few points.

Psychologist Ronald Siegel sees them in a different light. “These experiences are common to a wide variety of arousal in the human brain, including LSD, sensory deprivation and extreme stress. The stress is producing the projection of the images into the brain. They are the same for most people because our brains are all wired similarly to store information, and these experiences are basically electrical read-outs of this wiring.”

Dr. Richard Blacher of Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston, wrote: “I suggest that people who undergo these ‘death experiences’ are suffering from a hypoxic [oxygen deficiency] state, during which they try to deal psychologically with the anxieties provoked by the medical procedures and talk. . . . We are dealing here with the fantasy of death, not with death itself. This fantasy [within the patient’s psyche, or mind] is most appealing, since it solves several human concerns at one time. . . . The physician must be especially wary of accepting religious belief as scientific data.”

Siegel indicates another interesting point about the “visions” of the nearly dead: “As in hallucinations, the visions of the afterlife are suspiciously like this world, according to the accounts provided by dying patients themselves.” For example, a 63-year-old man who had spent much of his life in Texas related his “vision” as follows: “I was suspended over a fence. . . . On one side of the fence it was extremely scraggly territory, mesquite brush . . . On the other side of the fence was the most beautiful pasture scene I guess I have ever seen . . . [It was] a three- or four-strand barbed-wire fence.” Did this patient actually see barbed wire in “heaven” or in the realm beyond death? It is obvious that these images were based on his life in Texas and recalled from his own brain data bank—unless we are being asked to believe that there is barbed wire “on the other side”!

In fact, so many NDEs are closely related to the patients’ experiences and background in life that it is unreasonable to believe that they are having a glimpse of a realm beyond death. For example, do those NDE patients who see a “being of light” see the same person regardless of whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Muslim? In his book Life After Life, Dr. Raymond Moody explains: “The identification of the being varies from individual to individual and seems to be largely a function of the religious background, training, or beliefs of the person involved. Thus, most of those who are Christians . . . identify the light as Christ . . . A Jewish man and woman identified the light as an ‘angel.’”

At a strictly scientific level, Dr. Ring admits: “I remind my audiences that what I have studied are near-death experiences, not after-death experiences. . . . There is obviously no guarantee either that these experiences will continue to unfold in a way consistent with their beginnings or indeed that they will continue at all. That, I believe, is the correct scientific position to take on the significance of these experiences.”

Whereas what is said about the “notion of hell as some sort of eternal punishment would not have been known or even understood by Jesus and his listeners” is true. The actual definition of 'sheol' is grave, not a “chaotic passageway through which the soul passes after the body goes back to its various elements”.

Interestingly the Bible says at Ezekiel 18:4 . . .The soul that is sinning—it itself will die. . .

 

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not knocking you but there are always going to be people who pose supposedly intelligent arguments in rebuttal to something and there will always be people who side with those people if they're saying what they already believed to be Truth.

There have been documented NDEs where blind people were able to describe everything that took place in their operating room, so something beyond the imagination is clearly at work there.

A psychologist is the last person to speak on NDEs being that they deal with the mechanics of the mind and the Divine cannot possibly be interpreted by the limited human mind. You can't understand something that is Infinite with finite resources. And the fact that the human mind only understands what it perceives on a physical/material level makes the human mind a finite resource.

 

That was mostly the opinions of experts that pose intelligent arguments in rebuttal the supposedly intelligent arguments given by those who opinions you posted.

Since you don't give proof of this actually happening, what can be said? But even if you had that still does not make them after-death experiences, only near-death experiences.

But God would seem to be an expert and he says;
. . .The soul that is sinning—it itself will die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, . . . (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)
His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish. (Psalm 146:4)
Which seem to be saying that these are merely near-death experiences, not after-death experiences and do not tell us anything about what happens after death.

 

First you try to discredit me by saying I have no proof.

Then you quote a book full of stories and characters that have no proof of existence.

I do agree that near death experiences do not automatically prove what actually happens after death, I've been saying that. However, if blind people can actually see during one (as has been a lot more documented and proven than anything in the bible), something clearly beyond the mind is in effect.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html

 

So you believe that NDEs are actually are after death experiences because a blind person saw someone from a book you call "full of stories and characters that have no proof of existence". Interesting.

 

Some it seems will always shout give us Barabbas.

 

Reading is fundamental.

You're too old for me to have to point that out, then again you're uneducated so I'm not surprised.

And far as your point about a book full of stories that has never been proven to be Truth goes:

Well for one, the fact still remains that near death experiences have been more documented and proven than anything in the bible.

And for two, the fact that people who were blind while in "normal" consciousness were able to describe exactly what they saw in their immediate surroundings during their near death experiences AND have it verified by people with eyesight is a clear indicator something beyond normal human consciousness is in the picture.

I don't really expect you to understand this concept being that you think God is bound by the same laws as people here on Earth (duality, which would explain the belief in a "devil" to accompany a belief in God...along with many other things I've seen you say about God) so you don't understand anything beyond what you feel you can verify either with your physical eyes or through your own experiences. Since you've yet to have a near death experience, you doubt it. There has yet to be any kind of physical proof of anything you believe in the bible but that's okay because you want that to be true. But when it comes to things that go against it, it suddenly becomes flawed unless there is documented physical proof.

 

There was this woman that was undergoing brain surgery and she said that she heard everything people said and accurately described the surgical tool that was being used on her.

Her ears were covered and the tool that was used on her skull was covered. But how do we know that she didn't study the tools being used before she went under for surgery, and how do we know if she didn't just imagine what she heard or that her hearing was enhanced since she was under that condition? Under conditions of stress, your senses can become enhanced for a short period of time.

Also, how do we know that the things people saw were the actual things that we believe they described? We can saw that we saw a bookcase, but they never actually say the title of the books. So it seems to me that what they describe is an overview of what they understand a bookcase to look like and not the actual bookcase, otherwise why hasn't there been a single case describing is absolute detail instead of vague details like there was a bookcase?

In the case of the blind being able to 'see' during NDE, how do we know that they are seeing other than them saying that they see? It's nice to take peoples experiences seriously, but how can we know for sure since she was blind all her life? Maybe what she experienced was an expectation that she had of what it was like to see and that she didn't actually see?

Are there any cases of people dying COMPLETELY for days, coming back to life, and describing what they saw after that? And how can we know that they were really dead? Their brains can still be producing signals even if those signals aren't detected on the brains surface they are still happening in the deeper parts in lower frequencies.

 

You can ask those same questions about every single story in the bible.

Only difference is you can add the question of "what do they have to gain by lying?" to the people who speak on their NDEs. Most if not all of them do so to share their experiences and gain absolutely nothing financially nor materialistically from it.

We don't need to ask that question about religion, the church gets money from its devotees on a daily basis. All while keeping its followers in fear, including a fear of God who you supposedly trust.

Question your own beliefs before you start asking rhetorical questions, especially when the most common factor in your questions about NDEs is the fact they begin with "what if".

 

You do know that you can apply the same logic to Christians, right? Many of the Biblical writers were poor and many Christians today do not profit by expressing their experiences, although some do, but anyone can use anything that could be real for their own greedy advantage, including NDE proponents. On a side note, I am unsure what this has to do with the Bible because I thought we were discussing NDE.

I don't deny the experiences those that experience NDE. I am just skeptical that there is any clear evidence showing what it is that these people are experiencing. Unlike the Bible, this doesn't require faith, the Bible does. Some things need to be plainly obvious in the scientific realm and not so much for the realm of faith.


BTW, the fear of God that you always seem to have an issue with can be described as Reverential Awe when taken into context; just look at how Mary is usually portrayed in movie or the body language of the prophets in portraits made of them and you'll get the understanding from that.

But this thread isn't about the Bible so much as it is about NDE's and what I brought up wasn't rhetorical, they were counter theories that usually show around surrounding NDE and I am looking forward to you countering the points that are usually made. What could be happening could be what we hope for but that may not may be the truth. There are other theories that are just as sound, and to state again, I don't believe these people are lying but that what they experience may not be what we think it is. Now you can reflect that back at me concerning the Bible and you can detract the thread if you want, it is your thread. But the idea was discussing the validity of NDE.

 

Hell is an idea with certain characteristics, just like Heaven. So with that being said, why follow a religion that even offers the idea of a Hell? Is that the kind of motivation people need, to do something genuine and honest for once in their lives? I find it very sad. "Better get my shit together or I know where I'm going!" Lmao. Much love my fellows.

 

It's like what has been said. If we do good only because we fear the consequences then we aren't that good to begin with.

eace:

 

Many of what?

Do you even know who wrote the bible?

So basically it's okay to believe something that has no proof as long as you want it to be Truth but all other things fall under the "scientific realm" and requires "plainly obvious" evidence?

Your questions were more like desperate attempts to discredit people who had NDEs, asking questions such as "how do we know they didn't study the room first" along with your other questions. It was questions doubting the experience, not trying to find out more about it. The fact you claim to believe them doesn't cover that up, every one of your questions was an attempt to discredit them no matter how you try to sugar coat it.

Looks to me like your definition of the word "faith" is "believe what I want to be Truth and hope it turns out to be true even though there is no proof or logic to support it." That is a lot more laughable than countless people reporting similar experiences, which comes a lot closer to being "plainly obvious evidence" than the scripture and/or religion you dedicate your life to. That was the only point in bringing it up, not to detract the thread.

 

This I agree with tho.

 

Yes, and these holy men spoke under inspiration and someone wrote down what they said. Some of these people were ordinary everyday people like you and me, and some were Kings, but usually Kings do not express their faults to the point of brutality... but that's another story altogether

How are they desperate? They are legitimate concerns and questions yet you aren't trying to answer them. I wasn't trying to discredit them. I was trying to discuss the counter arguments usually made concerning NDE.

Actually, I have taken NDE's so seriously that I believed in them and I even suggested to people on these forums to read books concerning NDE's.

My definition of faith is: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see," (Heb. 11:1), yet it is recognizing why the Bible may be the word of God other than it saying that it is, so it's less a guess and more of an uncertain gaurantee but that this uncertainty is relieved by what we know about Biblical history and through prophecies that are tended usually for believers.

It should be clear because the main concern about NDE is whether or not what these people experience is real or imagined. Which is why they want to conduct experiments that removes the doubts that they have, that doubt being that they are filling in the blanks of what they thought they saw with their imagination. This is the main concern with NDE and it needs to resolved in order to be proven true. While being uncertain that King David's temple ever existed isn't earth shattering to the faith simply because archeology is a slow moving process and has ended up supporting the Bible anyway. But with NDE, the entire theory rests on whether or not these experiences are what people say that are, and I truly want to believe them, but I want to know why.

 

:cheers2:

 

Here is a great article concerning NDE:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997741

Click on Part five and listen to both sides of the story. The famous woman and her experience and the doctor's concern about her experience. I haven't thought about his counter-point until I heard him say that.

 

In examining the real economy of the world, it does not make sense that a writer of any book could be considered poor. To write a book is an enormously luxurious expenditure of energy.

They could be construed as desperate in light of the fact that patience will answer every question you have about this issue.

 

Yet many of them lived humble honest lives... there are plenty of writers throughout history that wrote great works yet were poor.

Patience is a great principal to follow. I am just unsure how this answers the questions.