Soviet troops who fought aginst fascists are a gang of bandits

"Soviet troops who fought aginst fascists are a gang of bandits"
An utterance of the Estonian President about the Soviet warriors-liberators.
For already two months the world is anxietly discussing an outrageous intention of the Estonian leadership to demolish a Bronze Soldier monument in the downtown of Tallinn.
The graves of warriors were esteemed at all times, after all. The memory about them has always become the part of the nation's memory.
But the ancient traditions seem to be unfamiliar to actual politicians. It was the following utterance what became the evidence:
"A group of Nazi brigands was banished by another gang - by Soviet troops."
In his interview given to BBC the actual Estonian President ventured to characterize in such a way the historical events connected with the liberation of Estonia from the fascist intervents in 1944.
We consider these words not just an escapade of an irresponsible politician but a provocation, an attempt to embroil the nations, to profane the heroes' memory.
Can we be surprised after such words and such estimations of a great mission of those people, who risked their lives to set Europe free from a fascism, that nowadays happy and prosperous Europeans put on again SS uniform and march on the streets of the Estonian cities?
And why does the public still remain silent?
Why is nobody from the politicians indignant on provocative speeches of president of Estonia?
Why are Jewish organizations not indignant that ideology of fascism is openly popularized in Estonia?
Why are the MASS-MEDIA quiet?

When will the measures on permission of this be accepted, because conflict is passing already to the international level?

We sent many letters with information about glorification of fascism in Estonia encouraged at state level, but we did not received any reaction!




Veterans were prevented from laying the flowers on a Bronze Soldier monument

May flowers be freely placed on graves in Estonia today?
May one revere the memory of fallen heroes without running the danger?

Today, on the 23rd of February, the representatives of a Night Watch movement and a Constitutional party came to do honour to those who fell in the World War II and to lay a wreath ordered by the veteran counsil of a Jewish community of Dnipropetrovsk on a Bronze Soldier monument.

At 11:30 a body of men came to the monument who tried to scatter the flowers and to place an iron wreath with the insulting inscription on the monument instead of them.

As a result a conflict has taken place which has grown into the fight. Not only veterans but also eople who came to place their bunches of flowers to the pedestal took part in it.

The police almost didn't interfere in it.

Present events testify to the intensification of the confict between Estonian nationalists and opponents of the fascism ideology.

Should we watch the current situation with indifference?





Dear ladies and gentlemen! If events what are going on now in the world are not indifferent to you, help to remind how fascism is terrible to reporters and members of parliament, who started to forget it! All information about fascism propaganda in Estonia you can find on a site
www.bronze-soldier.com

 

Well the communists did do some bad things in estonia as they did in russia , so I could understand someone saying the nazis and communists were bandits , but from your link it seems that they now have a bias in favour of the ss and nazis .

My view of the red army is mixed on one hand they were great soldiers and did a great job of fighting fascism and as individuals often fought with great patriotism and bravery , on the other hand they were being led by stalin who I think was a monster .

Id be happy to have the statues of red army soldiers in the united kingdom if they dont want them in estonia but to me they would represent the ordinary russian soldier not the soviet system or leadership .

If someone wants to see a film that shows what the waffen ss were like in russia Idi i smotri (come and see ) is possibly the best war film or film generally ever made

 

Soviet Union committed genocide of Russians and ethnic cleansings of non-Russian peoples living in the area that took millions of lives. Why should CCCP be glorified? Maybe it drove Nazi Germany away from Eastern Europe, but it didn't gave freedom for those people, but invaded the countries.

Thousands of Estonians were transported to concentration camps in Siberia, including little children. There's no Hollywood movies of it, no "Anne Frank Diaries" or hunreds of monuments reminding of it, but it happened. Ethnic cleansing organized by Stalin, a Holocaust. That was liberty?

 

Of course CCP invaded, what's wrong with that? Anything can be justified by 'might is right'.

If life was fair then a number of americans would have been put on war crimes for bombing civilians in Japan and Germany in WWII.

In any case, I'm sure estonians did their fair share of ethnic cleansing of Jews, gypsies, russians etc under the good eye of the Germans.

 

One of the most unpleasant people I ever met was an Estonian woman who worked in the government
She hated Russians and said they should all be forced to speak Estonian or be removed from what is now Estonia.

She ranged from sympathetic to Hitler , to being an open supporter of what he did.
On the EU , she loved the fact Western Europe was haemorraging jobs and investment to Estonia , and denounced objectors as idiots she couldnt care less about.
Oh and she thought the Sov Union took Estonia's indentity away but the Eu was terrific....

When asked about the Estonian SS murdering Russian children , she saw it as a minor unimportant point to the debate

I dont believe in violence against women , but her Nazist filth probably justified violence.

_____________
As for Russia , well I dont know about you lot , but if I saw a school full of children hanged by Estonian SS officers ( as regul;arly happened), I think Id commit some retaliation.


In any event Estonia is a part Slavic Russian speaking ( and Russia) and a part Nordic region.
Early Russia in any event , was a partly Nordic state.
Therefore , I dont see how Estonia should be separate from Russia.
( Im sure the average American would be a little unhappy with California was took over by Mexico)

THe world owes the Soviet Union a huge debt in defeating Nazism and the filth that followed it in Estonia.

Unfortunately theres still a Nazist cancer in the Baltics ,maybe the Soviet Union was too soft on it!

Maybe it shouldve been a case of Rodina Mat Vorya.. : )
My fellow Russians will know what I'm saying : )

 

Are you supporting Russian imperialism? Estonia is Finno-Ugric nation, like Finland. Russia is Slavic, which is different. Are you against independent nations?

Maybe, but I myself cant have much positive to say about Soviet Union. My relatives were shot by Soviets for standing against the red terror, they were innocent people who just wanted to live in peace in their own lands. Lands of Karelia were robbed and raped by the Soviets, they don't belong to Russians, they are Finnish lands. Beautiful Karelian culture was annihilated and replaced with Russian culture and language.

And like I already said, Stalin organized holocaust of millions.

 

1) To me , the Soviet Union was the most ethnically and linguistically diverse region the world has ever seen.A union of separate states working together for the common good.
The Soviet Union was Asian , Slavic , Nordic , and numerous other races/sub divisions.
Different oblasts had their own rules respecting local cultures in the Union( for example , a Jewish autonomous oblast existed)/
I dont see how that can be against separate identities.

Hitler and his Estonian / Nordic friends simply wanted to gas every Slav , Jew , gypsy , Asian and anyone else , non "Aryan".
Hardly a valid comparison IMO.

Im not against independent states , when there is a merit for independence.
But why should Estonia's 35 percent Russians be treated like Hitler's Jews and have their monuments desecrated and be subjected to hate campaigns by a new Estonian establishment nothing more than a puppet of American backed agitators?

After all , the Estonians dont seem to be complaining about the European Union , why should being part of the Russian Federation of states be any different?
Maybe , Estonia is still in denial about so many of its atrocities supporting Hitler and genociding children with him.

____________
My relatives ( not even combatants)were systematically killed by Germans and Baltics.
And often Baltic killers were *worse* than the German Nazis( hanging classes of infant schoolchildren from lamp posts etc)

No country compares to the atrocities commited by German and Baltic Nazis.
Hence Soviet resentment cant be something to be surprised at.
25 m Estonians were never murdered by the Russians ( tho Estonia backed the opposite vs the Soviets).I dont see how you can use the word Red Terror - the Soviets had no wish to engage in a war vs Germany - the Germans did.

There have been Nordic/ Slavic disputes for centuries.But the Soviets showed little interest in Finnish territory.( The Tsars were a different story , and enemies of the Soviets anyway).
However , the Finnstoo engaged in appalling crimes vs the Soviets.
Therefore , Soviet resentment later can hardly be surprising.

Stalin , unlike Hitler and the Estonians had no designs on expansion - merely for the Soviet Union to survive.
Stalin himself was a Georgian , a Caucus ethnic , so I dont see how he can be accused of ethnic cleansing.
Really , Estonia claiming that would be " the pot calling the kettle black".

Stalin was constantly fighting to stop Russia descending into the bloodbath of civil war
- greedy imperialists who only worshipped money and power , with no interest in building the Marxist utopia for the benefit of everyone.
In any country , those who attempt treason / a coup are imprisoned or taken to a place where their liberty can be monitored.
And sometimes , its best to take their children with them

The facts speak for themselves 25 m + Ru
ssians , 8 m Jews , and prob 8 m others all the victims of genocide by monsters from Germany , Estonia and Finland and others.

Yes , in retaliation , the Soviets did commit some war crimes.But looking at those horrific figures ( which most peop,e agree on) , I dont think you can call Estonia the good guys in this , far from it in fact.

I hope Estonia flourishes if it renounces the black parts to its past.

I also hope it treats its Russians with respect and fair play.Desecrating graves and monuments isnt part of that.

 

Russians have not respected graves theirselves. Finnish graves in occupied lands were dishonoured and gravestones were used as building material!

And Stalins purges weren't some little war crimes, they happened during and after the war. To innocent people. I hope you don't deny that fact that tens of millions were killed by Soviet Union? It's the same if you say Nazi Holocaust never happened. Racist dishonouring of all the victims of Stalin.

 

As an aside , hmm I dont see many Estonians complaining about the genocide in Iraq by a number of EU states...

Reply

1)Re Finnish graves , I cant comment on an individual case without the facts of that case.But if I found a grave of a Finnish SS member / similar , I think Id be justified in smashing it up.Maybe its me , but I m touchy about genocide ...

2) Er tens of m's killed by Stalin?No not even that sewer rat Winston Churchill ever accused Stalin of something that ridiculous.
Try 25 m PLUS
members of the Soviet Union murdered by Germany and her allies like the Estonians and Finns?Was there ever an apology ? No ofcourse not , because the Baltics are STILL Europe's most abhorrently fascist states.

Stalin didnt have death camps.Estonia supported death camps and extermination.
Stalin sent people to hard labour who wanted to commit treason and destroy the aim of everyone working for the community instead of materialist greed (or racist hatred).
ANd make no mistake , if these people ever got a hold under stalin , theyd murder left right and centre- as was shown with the rise of gangster NEw Russians.

Its absolutely NOTHING like Nazism .And that is the reason why Russia ( rightly so)doesnt feel Estonia should be independent.

3)Frankly when I see these Estonian views , I think by far the best thing would be for Estonia to become a periphery of the Russian Federation again.Better for the safety of everybody.

Unfortunately I cant have a debate with you when your facts are so incredibly inaccurate.Try and distance yourself from the trash that is printed in EU and American owned newspapers.You might be able to have a debate then.

 

There's a link about the disputed death toll of Stalins regime: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings


But, I'm not going to waste my time on debating with a random person on internet either, and not going to waste my time in searching you the facts of those people killed by the Soviet Union. You could search for them yourself, and should even have already read the history about them. (Though history books like to tell about Hitler most of the time, leaving other evil dictators more quiet behind...)

And no matter how many facts I give you, you can still say they aren't good enough. Only difference with holocaust denial is that soviet crime revisionism isn't a crime, you won't get in jail.

Btw., you didn't give any proofs yourself about those hung children you mentioned.


Yes, they weren't actually death camps, but for average people it doesn't really make much of a difference when you are going to die is the camp called labour camp or even "Socialists Working Paradise". There were huge deportations you can't deny, that's why for example almost 30% of Estonias population is today Russians, the original people being deported away.

And how can you say some little children were enemies of the community? Or average people, like those my relatives I mentioned earlier? They were no politics, no radical thinkers, just average people living on their farms. And they were deported to Siberia Gulag labour camps or shot.


And just to mention one tragedy of the many:

A mass grave of 200 Mari writers was found in a swamp near Joskar-Ola, and on Stalin's orders, the educated class was desimated: artists, skilled workers, doctors, and teachers, together about 4000 - in other words the cream of Mari El. The murdered people of 1937...
http://uralica.com/fgpeople.htm

And modern Russia is continuing her racist hate towards us Finno-Ugric peoples who only want to live in peace on their own lands.


But, when you're not Baltic or Finnic, you can't know the feelings we have. We don't like anyone to come and rule us, be it the Nazi Germany or Soviet Union. They can all leave us alone. So Soviet Union wasn't the great savior of Estonia, it was just another occupier after previous.

For me and my people Stalin is same as Hitler is for Jews. So don't ask me to love or respect Soviet Union, it's dishonouring.

I hope you can understand even some what I said. This is "Hipforum", so I wouldn't like to debate about genocides. Especially when it can lead into dishonouring of the victims.

Peace

 

Unfortunately , the fact that you ignore the truth means its impossible to debate with you.

1)You have no problem being part of the EU "superstate" because you can take other countries money AND bully ethnic Russians.
Altho a Soviet ideologogy of tolerance were people worshipped community rather than money and race hate , seems to be something u dont have any time for...

2)You try and pretend your part in the cold blooded murder of 25m Russians didnt exist .Then you compain about 200 "aryans" who were bent on civil war and genocide vs Russia.

3)Russia never had a problen with Muslm republics - only those that sided with Hitler.

4)Trying to blame Stalin , instead of Hitler and his Baltic friends for the 25m Soviets they murdered is outragoues.
Are you going to say 8 m Jews faked their own deaths too?

Heres a link or 2 to be going on with

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cach...n+estonia+war+crime&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=uk

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=194011&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

THe basic fact of the matter is , if you hadnt sided with the most evil ideology in history ( and commited equal or even worse crimes), you wouldnt have had a problem with Russia.
But you did.
Therefore , while you keep persecuting ethnic peoples in the Baltics , the more it looks like the only solution is to send some Russian tanks into Talinn and Riga etc

PS how would you like to explain a million people being starved to death in Leningrad by the Baltic SS?