TAKING THE OFFENSIVE! - wish there was another way

I have always enjoyed the discussions/debates I've been a part of in these forums. Despite the way it appears at the moment, I have respect for every religion (though not necessarily every practitioner/adherent). I have always maintained that FUNDAMENTLIST thinking is the problem, not religion.

There are fundamentalists in every organized religion (and a few unorganized, and even in some philosophical movements) - rigid extremists, who cling to dogmatic principles and consider everyone who thinks differently as an adversary. In my time here, I have, for the most part confined my more challenging arguments to engage those who take this fundamentalist perspective.

I'm afraid I now must change that policy. In the last year or so, I have become increasingly aware of a very threatening worldview, which I feel a moral imperative to attack. I call it "END TIMES DOCTRINE," and I am fast coming to believe that it may be the most dangerous spiritual idea in the history of religion. I've mentioned this in some other recent posts, but it's time I made a bigger deal about it.

This phenomena isn't limited to Christianity. The entire Judeo-Christian-Muslim spiritual tree is infested with it. Right now the United States is being led by a man who is a believer in this doctrine. Many of the members of our elected government are also adherents.

It's no secret that this doctrine has existed in one form or another for millennia. Even before the birth of Jesus Christ, people have been prophesying the end of the world - it's not new. What is more, at the end of each century (and more so for the end of a millennia) a phenomenon known as the "fin de siecle" has intensified this belief by one or more orders of magnitude. Of course it isn't as if we haven’t seen it coming, BUT - HAVE YOU REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE IT?

These people aren't interested in stopping the world from ending, THEY WANT IT TO END! More and more people are now actively working toward making this cataclysmic event come to pass, and as far as many of them are concerned, the sooner the better. Here's the basic idea, in a nutshell: God comes to earth, causes a big war, lots of people die, then he gives his favored people (and there is quite a bit of confusion as to who these people are - it seems everyone thinks that they are included) a paradise to live in forever. In some versions, he remakes the world, in others, the entire universe is destroyed and paradise is recreated elsewhere.

Believers in this doctrine are unlikely to care much about things which impact the environment or the future of life on Earth, for obvious reasons. What they are interested in, is preparing for the end. In many cases, this part includes preparing a place for god to return to (i.e. a religious state). They work toward enforcing whatever their religions morality is, legislating it into law and in many cases, forcing those who believe differently to convert or die or flee, or perhaps only pay a tax, depending on the religion (though in every case, they expect to provide for some way of exposing the unbelievers, which will make it much easier to discriminate against them - causing many religions to move underground in order to survive).

People who believe that we are in the "end times" are capable of extreme actions. Remember, they expect their god to come and save them, so, much like owning a "doomsday device," they believe they can act with impunity. Those who die in righteous service will be rewarded in the afterlife. Worse yet, because they think their god will save them, the worse they can make conditions here on Earth, the faster their god will come. According to their prophecies, he won't allow them to be destroyed because of their own environmental carelessness or nuclear winter, or any other man-made disaster, so if they make conditions unlivable, he'll have to come and save them that much sooner. Given the potential of modern industrial and warfare technology to devastate the planet, this makes our particular "end times" more dangerous than those we have read histories of. We are capable of achieving far greater destruction than ever before, and now we have a large faction of people spread across the world, who can't wait for it to happen.

As I said, the President of the United States is among these people. Who knows how many other world leaders might have similar ideas. We cannot afford to allow someone who believes this doctrine to run our government (or any government). Who knows what they might do. They don't have the interests of their countries population to think of, that much is certain. Because they believe the end times doctrine, their priorities are necessarily skewed. End times believers are dangerous, especially when they are in power. We might think that we have a separation of church and state, but when our leaders follow this doctrine, such a separation becomes impossible.

Something must be done about it, soon. We have to use every legal means at our disposal to rid our governing body of these dangerous people. Impeachment is a good option. Currently there are many things we could start impeachment proceedings over, but we have to actually do it. End time doctrine (especially the Christian brand) advocates the existence of a religious state. We could very soon be looking at a religious dictatorship in this country if we don't act quickly. This is not just a passing phase in our society, nor is it a temporary fit of histrionics, on my part - this is a real and legitimate concern. The violence we are seeing now is just the beginning, folks. How much worse do you want to let it get?

The end times doctrine is dangerous. It's adherents may seem normal to the casual observer, but this belief - this selfish idea that god is going to come to earth, kill everyone else off, and create a paradise just for them - is just one step away from promoting genocide. Think about it.

 

apocolypse now

 

great post

 

Absolutely well said. What many christian americans don't realize (or conveiniently forget) is that this country was formed by men and women trying to escape a religious state. That's why the bill of rights and seperation of church and state was included into the constutution. Why take us back?

Now we have pastors pushing politics and kicking liberal members out of churches. Religious conservatives complaining about spongebob. The FCC famous rise in complaints about broadcasting (they were flooded with thousands of complaints - thousands more than usual) all steming from one religious activist group. Churches get to remain tax-exempt, yet push political candidates. We are thrust into a culture war that we don't even want, but we have to fight in order to keep our freedom and civil liberties. It is a mess. I have no problem with anyone's religious beliefs, but I do have a problem when those religious conservatives think they get to define morals and values for the rest of us. I don't tell religious conservatives how to live, and I expect the same respect from them.

End-timers are paticularly threatning to human society. Rather than work to make the world a better place they go around passing judgment and predicting how much longer until christ comes back. I recognize that many religious people are very charitable and kind, and they are great people to be commended. These are a different breed than the end-timers however. The end-timers relish in atrocity, like it is proving some point for them. Its sick really. The world has and is getting better from our past (a simple study of civilized human history will show anyone that), those obsessed with the end-times that pretend and wish the world is getting worse are not doing anything to help the human condition. It should be important to any spiritual, loving person to improve the conditions of life on this planet...and many have worked hard to do so. But it is one step forward, two steps back. Humanity could use the help and passion of these end-timers, but unfortunatly these people are sorely misguided.


Fundamentalism is a threat to freedom.

 

Would it be too much to ask for people to stop pointing fingers that the other guy's religion, claiming that it is THIER extremists who are causing all the trouble and start pointing out the effect that this dangerous trend is having in their own religious communities? The easiest way to institute change is from the inside. It might be difficult. The end times frenzy works with a mob mentality and it has momentum, but it has a great weakness: it's insane. It is very obviously a great peril to our continued existence and anyone with half a brain can realize that if we can just get them to think about it for a moment.

Once people begin to really become vocal about just how dangerous it is to fall prey to end times thinking, perhaps some of the truely caring and well-meaning members of these religious groups will wake up and spread the word. It seems to me that any sane, rational person who is confronted with this reality will undertand that it is a moral imperative to act to stop this suicidal rush towards destruction.

End times dogma will destroy this democracy if we keep these these politician zealots in office. I, for one, intend to begin writing e-mails and posting to other blogs about this topic. If everyone who reads this thread can just tell five people about what is going on, and ask them to tell five people, and so on, we can find out what we citizens of this country are really made of. Just maybe, we can prove that humanity really is capable of governing itself. I hope so. The alternative is really ugly.

 

If you want to get rid of this type of thinking, than very probably christianity in its current forms and Islam would definitely have to go. You speak in your post about how this culture is riddled with these pernicious ideas - but the whole idea of the end of the world is intrinsic to some belief systems. As long as people believe in so called revelations of the end, this problem will always persist.


In the UK we have considerably less of it than I believe is so in America, and certainly, fanatical and half-baked religious notions such as that assumed by GWB and co. are not a problem here. The religious right are not very powerful, and I think in general, people tend to laugh at such ideas being given serious credence.

In the end, I think it's just a way certain feeble minded individuals have of making themselves feel righteous and good, even 'chosen'. Meanwhile, as you say, if it's going to end anyday, what's the point of trying to do anything to improve things here and now? It's just a way of avoiding responsibility adopted mainly by self-righteous geeks.

 

boo fucking whoo

 

boo fucking whoo people are gunna talk bout "end times" until it happens man.

 

I think you miss the point.. Do you not see the danger of people in power having this sort of reasoning?

 

I agree.

One thing to consider is that the fundamentalists are not too bright and very vocal, while people with commom sense don't go around yelling their point of view all of the time. They once spoke of themsleves as the silent majority, now its reversed.

I can only hope that the fundamentalists destroy their own movement with overconfindence (and of course inbreeding ) and we can go back to how things were (or are currently in countries such as England)

Religion should be personal, keep it to yourselves

 

Let them talk all they want. That's fine with me. Just keep it our of our government. No one who believes that we are in the end times (with all that entails) should be allowed to hold office. The end times doctrine radically changes the priorities of those who hold it to be true. The priorities of those who are governing in a democracy should be to SERVE THE PEOPLE and not to serve some genocidal god!

 

Well Sir we are living in the end times!! Jesus is gunna come back and that scares the shit out of you!! ITs NOT what WE THE PEOPLE want its what GOD wants in anything even the goverment Should be doing well they should be praying and asking GOD how to do stuff not us the people,

 

Why should we listen to some hayseed from Amarillo Texas? Of course thats what you believe, its been drilled into your head since you were born.


Its all your opinion and has no place in the political governance ot this nation.

By the way, you spelled missionary wrong in your other thread.

 

"Boo fucking whoo" is exactly the uncaring and closed-minded attitude that is dangerous for freedom in this society. Thanks for the example though, now other's reading this thread should understand the point of the original poster better.

We live in a democratic society, not a theocracy.

 

You mean someone got to that poor innocent........

You're dead right.

As to who governs America, it's probably not for me to say, but the current crew really do look pretty bad from over here.
Glad the religious right don't have any voice in British politics.

 

People have been saying this exact same shit since probably the beginning of humanity.


And look, we're still here! There are no end times!! omfg!!!!!!!!!

 

SHouldnt man kind be looking for some great event before we expect the "end times"? I mean, if there was an apocalypse, why would it happen at such a random time/date? Do you really think this is all God had in store for planet Earth?

 

I first want to say I don't disagree that the End Times Doctrine is dangerous as hell (heh), but I see one small problem in what you're saying: you're basically stating that people with certain beliefs should not be allowed to hold office...which is just what fundies say about atheists and probably other religions like Islam or Buddhism (yeah, a Buddhist leader would be horrible, wouldn't it...). I don't like the idea of there being rules about who can hold office based on beliefs. That's where this gets tricky.

 

who cares where im from. and you assumingly think its "drilled" into my head since i was born... Well your wrong... it hasnt.
well yay for my opinion as this one is yours and I dont care
and So.

 

You seem to be confusing fundamentalists with cult leaders in history who have gathered members and forced them into learning military strategies in preparation for the end times. There is a cult in New York as we speak, who is anxiously awaiting the end. In fact, they have a special sanctuary where they believe Jesus Christ will stand during the second coming.

There is also a difference between fundamentalists and extremists.

Fundamentalists are those who adhere to a basic set of principles in Biblical teaching. Extremists are those whom take extreme measures in the name of their, "faith". (i.e. The Crusades, Suicide bombers, etc.) It seems that the logic to differentiate between the two is lost in most of these, "Anti-faith", posts.

I suppose since I am, "one of these people", I shall abruptly stop my environmental acts such as recycling and trying not to litter, and give up humanitarianism by discontinuing to donate and lend a helping hand. According to you, all believers of Christ, who know of the end times, must do these things, so I shall now have to, just to benefit your stereotyping.

Oh and by the way, no offense, but the next time you want to comment on the end times, you may want to get your facts straight. The Bible states that the Anti Christ will begin the apocalypse where a war shall kill one third of mankind, not God.

The generalization in your logic is the very thing that has kept racism prevalent in certain areas of the south, hate crimes committed upon those of the Islamic faith after 9/11, and whole plethora of acts of intolerance. Stereotyping and preconceived notions are dangerous.

"Fundamentalists are" ...in the same breath, you mine as well try to falsely claim that, "All African Americans are" and, "All Hispanics are" or, "All Catholic are alcoholics", and, "All Jews are stingy with money."