I think I may stay off religious and theological topics just for a short while. But I wanted to repeat again, something that I first heard in street law class in HS. By my teacher then, who was talking about why he opposed the death penalty. If punishment and retribution made sense, it would have to be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That is the only way it would make sense, because that is what would only be fair and equal. But in western nations it is obviously isn't that. Like he told us when a man tortures and kills someone, we don't torture and kill him. We house him, make sure he has enough food and medicine, and make sure he has a reasonably happy life from then on. Yes we do, sorry if you wanted more. Punishment and retribution are two morally flawed ideas no matter how you look at them. And no, they are not separate from revenge. Something high and lofty and a form of "justice". They are just revenge plain and simple. And the religious idea of punishment is flawed then too. And even more flawed is the idea of eternal punishment. That last one was used both to control people and to make them behave morally. If that's you're only reason for being moral, you don't need religion. You need a psychiatrist. (Now, just to wax religious and philosophical once more. I don't have time research it and I don't much as I used to. But some religions teach there is no divine punishment. And some forms of Christianity, like unitarianism, antinomianism and Gandhi (who called his religion "satya" and "ahimsa") do too.) But in short, we still need justice and punishment to enforce contracts and protect rights. And we need moral responsibility too. But if you still believe in all I said above, that's nice. Just don't try to write it into our laws.