Thumbprint Dose(vs. DMT)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eujCeBC4Lh0"]Jesus, did you see what GOD just did to us man?? - YouTube

 

Depends what you class as major effects... gaseous mouldable walls, I don't class as major effects anymore... more like a lingering ability to see more of reality as it is rather than the static illusion of solidity most of us have built up.

I'm not talking about just a lingering feeling... that lasts quite a while.

I wouldn't necessarily call it tripping either, because it doesn't feel much like going anywhere as the primary effects do... ego fully back with thoughts and ideas projected onto surrounding walls, swirling, changing, building.... relatively minor compared to the main show.

With your supposed extensive experience, it surprises me you haven't had lingering effects.

Happily, until you start considering subjective reports relevant, it's pointless talking to you about this anyway.

I mentioned Ram Dass, yet you seem happy to disregard his report too.

There are those who are able to see into this world without any substance enhancement...

Myself and many others are clearly lying about elongated effects :groupwave:

There is an average, yet not everyone reacts the same.

 

A while back I sent you links to some of my trip reports/writings here. Have you ever read any of them? If so then you would realize how silly the above statement is.

I didn't disregard it at all, I even specifically mentioned it, but his account is irrelevant to this discussion anyway considering that they REDOSED regularly and in ever increasing amounts to stay high for an extended period. So what, I've done that many times and it is still not the same as one huge dose; which is the topic of this thread.

There certainly are, I'm happy to be one of them. :sunny:

I don't think lying, just exaggerating.

There are specific physiological process that occur when someone ingests LSD-25.
There will of course be variations within the general population regarding onset, duration, come down and residual effects, but overall LSD-25 follows a very specific pattern in both somatic effects and psychological effects.

I am actually surprised that someone will your education in science would be so opposed to considering the scientific facts of it, but rather hold to your perceptions, which as a scientists you know is about the most unreliable data set to use to make the assertions you are making.

I have reams of scientific literature compiled over 60 years to base my position on, what were you basing yours on again?


Oh and any comment on the article I posted earlier about the LSD overdose???

 

I'm not sure - will double check and have a read.

Then it confuses me that you think these effects aren't able to manifest in others... although it could be interpreted that they're more of a side/after-effect from the use of LSD and not necessarily a direct effect... or the natural state of being / awareness that we are supposed to have in the first place, but appears to have been programmed out of us.

I'm wanting to integrate more of that into my daily life.

I agree with the average, I never disputed that.

All I am trying to get you to see is that there is a possibility that not all of these "longer lasting" reports are bullshit

With your reading, surely you've come across outlyers.

Perhaps these reports come from people who have had their first big experience and the fluidity of reality experienced afterwards, they continue to class as part of the primary LSD experience?

Is this where we are getting ideas crossed, perhaps?

There are many explanations other than just "bullshit", despite a commonly accepted average to the experience.

I'm not saying that everyone will have wildly varying peculiarities in that department.

Heck, there have been reports of people who have never come back from the experience... however, how many of these can be directly tied to an LSD experience without other factors is unknown.

Nothing more than perhaps we're getting mixed up in what we each mean by afterglow

 

Aha, possibly the confusion is that maybe you are equating a "psychedelic" mind set is going to include visual anomalies and other "effects" of LSD.

Hell I had a psychedelic mind set and could go into altered states of awareness rather readily long before I ever took any psychedelics.

It not hard to integrate into daily life, it's a mind set, not tripping.

Actually when I had my reintroduction to psychs after about a ten year break via mescaline, I was surprised at how not different my mind set was with the mescaline.
I guess over the years I had integrated it into my daily life without conciously realizing it.

And no, a person does not have to walk around with a
"flowers-in-thier-hair, peace brotha" mentality either, just to answer you detractors who will point out that I am often an asshole.

It is much more an understanding of the interplay of everything and how our actions/interactions carry forward like waves in a pond.

The thing is I'm a very analytical person and when I start hearing reports that are very different then my experiences, I turn to the science and facts. Controlled studies are far more reliable than Joe Stoner's trip report.

I start calling "Bullshit" when I hear reports of people doing a ridiculous amount with no ill effects.
In the report I posted, 3 of the people had to be intubated so they could breath, one aspirated vomit, all had mild generalized bleeding, yet were all fully recovered from the drug effects within 12 hours and all were released within 48 hours.
That is hard documented fact. I will tend to side with such documentation over a subjective report.

So I don't think it has much to do with the definition of "afterglow", did you even read it?

Subjective reports have their place and value when dealing with psychedelics for sure, but not when talking about purely somatic effects of the substance. Then subjective reports are very unreliable, especially when perceptions are compromised.

 

Actually I have done extensive academic research on LSD and psychedelics in general, over many years, and cannot recall a single mention of significant extended durations of psychedelic experiences at all. The phenomenon you are describing however, does fit nicely into Hallucinogen Perception Persisting Disorder, which is correlated with both frequency and size of dosing, both of which are quite high in your case tasty :sultan:. There is already the aformentioned mechanism by which a psychedelic experience can appear to be "extended" beyond the plasma peak behavior of the compound; so we need not infer some kind of "special metabolism" in your case, or any other hypothesis i've seen in this thread and others so far, as that is unscientific.

 

HPPD = extended LSD effects...

As per

Although HPPD is usually only "diagnosed" when it is causing issues to the individual or is unwanted.

Some will be disposed to it more than others and will have effects of the experience lasting longer than others.

That re-enforces what I've been typing? I don't recall suggesting a vastly different metabolic rate.

 

Here is part of the problem, tasty......
What the fuck does the bold line even mean?
I'm sure it has meaning and significance to you and I can sort of understand you, but if we are going to have an intelligent conversation about things such as the physiological effects of LSD, such language really doesn't convey much and detracts from the topic.

 

just to play devil's advocate,
that's only 3 people. not exactly statistically significant.

i didn't bother reading the report, so maybe i'm about to look like an ass,
but how is hard documented fact of only 3 people that much more believable than tasty's "subjective" report about himself and two friends?

 

Yeah pork, you really should read it before commenting, or quoting me out of context.
In context, the ENTIRE incident is hard fact, including the medical issues and duration of effects.
or more pointedly, what I said in that post;

"I start calling "Bullshit" when I hear reports of people doing a ridiculous amount with no ill effects."

My point in mentioning the 3 specific individuals was to illustrate that at high doses, medical intervention maybe needed to stave off death.


Seriously, why is this even being fucking debated??????

As Writer said, and I have said, NOWHERE in the clinical literature is there any mention of LSD trips lasting as long as tasty is claiming is possible. Quite the contrary, AS ILLUSTRATED BY THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION. (read the report)
Now please keep in mind that we are talking about 60 years of research and literally millions of test subjects.

Is that a big enough sampling for you Pork?

If you guys think they didn't test high doses, muti-day dosing, etc, etc, your being naive about it. I know I've read reports of alcoholism treatments using 1mg+ doses. Though not a thumbprint, still no mention of any longer duration.

Why should I waste any more keystrokes on this if you guys won't even read the clinical resources, but will consider subjective trip reports as more valid????

Especially when you both, Pork and Tasty, have friggin' degrees in scientific fields , so you KNOW the value and importance of such clinical research and for you guys to more or less just say "whatever" about it is confusing to say the least.

 

i'm not saying "whatever" to it.

i'm just offering up alternative possibilities. the biggest thing about science is being able to question what we think we know.

but mostly, i like fucking with you

 

:toetap05:

 

At least now I know he does it to people other than me :\ pork there's nothing useful about coming into a discussion with no knowledge about what is being discussed just to ruffle people up. You do this often and it's kind of trollish of you. I honestly don't understand what you think you are contributing besides annoying regulars here.

maybe? you can do better man. if you don't know what's being discussed or haven't followed the thread then just take the time to do that before you arbitrarily "pick sides" just to "fuck with people".

You're doing it wrong

we're talking about an exceedingly rare event; an LSD overdose. Noxious has linked to medical documentation of such an event, in three different people, all who presented with fairly severe symptoms (ie, in danger of dying), and all who were essentially baseline by hour 12. If you do not see the difference between that report, and tasty's hipforums writings, and if you cannot see the clinical and statistical significance (remember this is a RARE EVENT) then I feel like you have a bit of a "swiss cheese" understanding of science.

 

maybe you guys take HF too seriously sometimes.
i'm just fucking around. i'm a sarcastic guy, and it's the internet.

i didn't really take sides with tasty. i believe i have "called him out" on some things he has said as well.


but i should apologize for trolling. i suppose that is exactly what i was doing.

alright, i'm gonna go read that article now...

and BTW, i do real science 5 or 6 days a week for my profession. i guess when i log on to HF at the end of the day, smoke a bong, and get to relaxing... i don't really feel like being a scientist anymore. i took slight offense at your swiss cheese comment, but since i have earned a master's degree in biochemistry and have published a paper on pubmed, i probably shouldn't let that get to me. but honestly, i do have some self-doubt when it comes to my understanding of science..so it did sting a little.
i guess i had it coming though. if i can dish out the trolliness, i gotta be able to take it too, right?

i just hope you guys know that my fucking with you is all in good fun, at least from my point of view. i'll try to keep it in check though since i know it bugs you, writer.

 

let's not forget this reasonable post by porkstock on page 6

OK, i read the abstract of that article. they don't even mention how they know the 2nd powder was LSD. so for all we know it could have been DOM or something. {edit: on pubmed, they say they measured Serum and gastric concentrations of LSD tartrate.}
so if it was LSD...they snorted massive amounts. not exactly the same as eating a similar amount. snorting drugs is almost always more dangerous.

i feel like if this study was done nowadays, you guys would be much quicker to criticize it. how do they know it's not NBOMe? how do they know it wasn't due to the combo of cocaine and LSD? maybe they were also drinking.

so IM(scientific)O, i dont' think you can use that article as evidence that a thumbprint dose would usually result in such physical distress.

to be clear, i DON'T think that the meat of a trip from a thumbprint dose would last for days. but i DO accept the possibility that it could be interpreted like that by the person who ate multiple milligrams of LSD. it probably does feel like you trip for a week, even if you technically don't.

 

Seeing a pattern here Nox?

:love:

 

Which is why I was a bit surprised. I figure that looking at this shit from a scientific slant more so than one leaning towards subjective experience would be your default.
This shit should be second nature to you.:sultan:

Regarding the specific OD incident, the main ideas to take away from it is that large dose LSD experiences don't have a duration that different then standard 100ug dose and that there is also a real risk of death, or the very least needing medical care. That three of them had to be tubed is crucial as well considering that the cause of death in the majority of animal tests to determine an LD50 was respiratory arrest.


But we all still wuv U little porkypoo...:love:

 

Yeah, WTF did I ever do to you guys..

 

but also of note:

-they snorted the LSD (which could have shortened the duration. that's common with other drugs, but maybe not LSD).

-they combined a huge dose of LSD with cocaine, a very dangerous drug on its own. this could have contributed greatly to their need for medical care. (although i think it's perfectly sensible to expect a need for medical after snorting hundreds or thousands of doses of LSD)

 

and it's a serious discussion just because it's the internet doesn't mean you don't take it seriously ever. that is definite troll mentality.

Sounds complicated You know in this life lots of people get to very high places without learning the basics. One has only to look at any political arena to realize that most contenders haven't a basic understanding of statesmanship. The same is true in other fields. I'm not saying this is you, but I'm pointing out it's a reality that often people are paid well to do complicated things that they don't really understand even fundamentally (sometimes it doesn't matter, other times it does). If you feel a disconnect from your life's work, I encourage you to fix those holes.

Now you know how it feels to be fucked with lol.