was man really responsible for original sin?

There seems to be a logical inconsistency with the notion of god being timeless and omniscient and man being capable of free choice. If everything is already known to god, how can man be free to behave any differently from the way god already knows we will?

If god is omniscient, he knew that man would commit original sin when he created him. So if god knew exactly what would happen, precisely what decisions man would take, how could mankind have behaved any differently?

The logic seems to go like this:
God is timeless and omniscient.
God created mankind knowing he would fail.
Therefore god is responsible for man's failure.

It doesn't seem reasonable to create a being, already knowing that he will fail, and then blame him for the failure!

So either god is not omniscient, or man had no choice. If man had no choice, then sin is god's own fault, not man's.

 

isn't the argument (plantinga) that god was incapable of actualizing a world where every person with free will freely chooses to do moral good, but in the end, a world containing evil and moral good is better than no world at all?

but then, that contradicts god's omnipotence; shouldn't god be able to create a world where everyone freely chooses good, or is even he incapable of some things?
...
i was reading a few articles on it, free will defenses claiming that god has a middle knowledge where he can see how people would respond to different circumstances, though he isn't responsible for those responses, and thereby chooses the best possible set of circumstances for a world with the most good and least evil.

or, another argument is that god has no middle knowledge (i don't know if this takes away from his omniscience!?) and is in effect, gambling when he creates free-willed creatures.

i really don't know, it's so mumbo jumbo to me most of the time; these determinations with their middle knowledges and A's and P's, makes me want to knock my head against a wall. as soon as you slog through one argument, there's a counter argument to be done after. *shrug* hehe


peace,
sophia

 

the most interesting arguments, at least to me, question the real value of free will at all, and whether it wouldn't have been a better idea for god to have created us with limited free will, so that we all 'accept him' in the end, and no one suffers.

or, if he was aware of who's free will would choose evil (& able to actualize such a scenario), why not *not* create those people, and just create the people who would choose good. are the evil-choosers somehow necessary for the community to stand or something? and if god can do anything, shouldn't he be able to create a world where everyone is free-willed AND chooses good?

 

I belive there is a natrual law.If you give free to the uiverse one part of it will do bad at a time.God knew this but gave us life anyway because he loves us.So this suffering is only to fullfil the natural law.When God destorys satan he can restore our nature to do only good when if we really wanted to we could do bad but we wont.Our planet is the unluckyest of planets....

 

I view it like this:

God gave man free will.
He created the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


Now, Satan lured man to disobey God.
God wanted to see if Adam would stay loyal to him (which he knew he wasn't).

Note: the name; 'tree of knowledge of good an evil.'

When man sinned he started having knowledge of consequences for - evil (as in, he got kicked out of the garden and had to do labor).
Since he now knew of consequences, he knew what good and evil is.

To put it short:

If the tree hadn't been created, and Adam hadn't eaten off of it. Man, basicly, wouldn't know the difference between Good and Evil. If he wouldn't know the difference, than he wouldn't really have free will.

In order to have free will, one must know the difference, and decide to obey or not to obey.

 

If you have kids you know ahead of time (before you have tem) that they're going to fuck up sometimes; disobey, make mistakes, etc.


Doesn't mean you're responsible for their mistakes or that you shouldn't hold them responsible.

As far as omnifiscence vs freewill; I know if my cat see's a mouse he's going to chase it. Doesn't mean I caused him to.

 

well that's not a fair argument because you're just an observer of the cat and mouse, and nothing more. god created the cat and mouse, brought their environment, bodies, and personalities into existence. a simple observer is free of responsibility, but can god be 'let off the hook' as far as outcome goes?

say i'm a mother, i brought a child into the world and he's a hyperactive 2 year old.... i'm observing little jimmy looking out the front door, he has the option to run out and possibly get hit by a car, or stay in the house. who's responsible for the outcome, me, being the mother, or jimmy, having had the free will to do as he wished? is it too much to expect consistent responsible action out of jimmy? and what if jimmy's father is a crazy bastard who continually encourages jimmy to do wrong? satan apparently runs amok in the world, screwing people over, and god lets it happen.

the thing is, the above argument isn't even totally fair, because i, as a mother, didn't consciously create my child's personality. didn't god create everything, including our personalities, the complete image?
was dr frankenstein responsible for the destruction caused by the monster?

anyway, didn't god get rid of nearly all of mankind through the flood because we were so evil... why does he let satan hang around, why the double standard?

 

If a fourten teller tells you your future....are the responsible?

 

but the fortune teller didn't CREATE you, that's what i'm saying.

god created everything, our environments, bodies, personalities, and everthing else. how can god create out personalities, but not be held responsible for how we react to a given situation, which he also created?

 

Thing is we don't know if God actually created our personalitys or if we create our own personalitys by the choices (free will) we make.

See that's the thing: in order to really answer these questions we'd have to have a whole lot of prelimenary answers that we don't have.

I mean even if you take God out of the equation you're still left with the question; do we really have a choice about anything we do? To what extent are our choices predetermined by outside factors (enviroment)?

And (gotta laugh), if God is responsible, who is he responsible to?

Really I think it's only an issue if you chose to see God as the great punisher, and life as a series of right and wrong choices. I don't think life is that "either/or". I think every choice we make is right in the sense that it's bound to teach us something.

 

God created man with sin (ignorance of God and God's hand in all things).

Mankind cannot. However, there is a time when man will become aware of (knowledgeable about) God and no longer live in ignorance (sin).

It isn't failure, it's lack of knowledge. God teaches us our whole lives, whether or not we are aware that it is God teaching us. Eventually everyone will reach the point where they have an understanding of God and they will know longer feel despair, worry, or negative emotions that arise because the person is not aware that everything that happens is coordinated by a loving God. Jesus knew he would die on the cross and knew that it would benefit the rest of mankind- teaching them that there are ordeals to go through that are part of God's plan- but ultimately everything that happens is beneficial to you.

Blaming man for man's 'failure' (ignorance) is a way to make the man realise that he is not responsible for his own 'failure' (ignorance). Once you learn that God is responsible for all things you will know longer worry about the things that you are ignorant about- you know that God's hand is guiding everything and that God will reveal the purpose of these things to you at the proper time. You can then laugh at God when God blames you for anything. Which is the whole point. God has a divine sense of humor, after all.

One of the benefits of ignorance is that we can watch a movie like Revenge of the Sith and feel moved by it's story. We don't constantly sit there saying God is causing this to happen (although God is), we have an imagination that can appreciate ficticious stories. Therefore, this ignorance benefits us and allows us to understand things in ways that God intends (how little boys fantasize about being superheroes, etc.- their imagination would dismiss these fanatasies as frivolous if they knew that God's hand was directing all things). You get to hold on to this ignorance forever- and watch mighty plays and stories fold out before your eyes. This ignorance (sin) is a gift that allows you to appreciate and participate within the stories that God creates for you.

Sin is the stone that the builder refused that has become a cornerstone. Sin is a blessing from God, not a curse, however you must become spiritually mature before you realise this. Just like in weight lifting, there is spiritual pain involved in developing your spiritual strength- but the benefits are enormous and last forever (you're not gonna be in the same body forever- but you will always have the same soul).

The eyes of sin allow us to watch a drama unfold and feel moved by it. Knowledge of God's grace and love gives us the sense of peace when we are done watching or participating in whatever crazy ass dramatic story God gives us. God is home base- safe and comfy. God's stories that God gives to us when God veils God's hand are there to excite and entertain us. Whether God is playing Satan or playing Jesus, God is doing it for us cuz God is a sweetheart. Ohh yeah, one of my favorite creations of God is porn. God is great!! Ohh, and hot hot hot hot chicks. I love God! Ohh, I forgot food, drugs, music, movies, www, and books. God's awesome...

 

The notion of a world in which all human choices are orchestrated yet "free" seems incoherent. God has given us a part in shaping our world, even bringing others into it. Note in Genesis that God left "filling and subduing the Earth" to Adam and Eve. If God had instead created a "master race" of infallible beings, it would scarcely be human.

Adam and Eve knew what obedience meant before they sinned. I don't think "knowledge of good and evil" refers to free will. Rather, I think it refers to the advent of law as a result of sin. (Rom. 3:20)

 

on a related note,

is it not contradictory when i hear christians say, "God has a plan", if free will obviously dictates for an unknown outcome?

 

Indeed nmhg ~ like Gods "plan" to annihilate human "evil" with the flood is contradicted by "human nature" that god him/herself built into humankind and therefore cannot be annihilated by any flood that doesn't actually annihilate humankind. Was that a joke, or did I miss something?

 

My favorite thing is "Satan's greatest tool is knowldge"....Does God want us to be dumb?

 

Refer to the garden of eden scenario genesis 3-7. Who tells the truth, who tells the lie?

 

Spritual death . So its more or less the serpent minuplating the truth. *I was to lazy to open my bible so i assumed you were refferring to the tree and the fruit and the badness lol

 

No. God knows all of our choices and works them into his plan. (See Gen. 50:20; Acts 4:23-29)

The flood wasn't an attempt to annihilate human evil; it was a judgment against it and a warning to future generations.

 

I have a question......dose anyone ever read/consider my posts no why cuz im 13

 

I read it and liked it , I don't think most people know how to post on it.