What's The Deal With Education?

I of course mean so violently divided in such a manner they would not settle for any compromis that would imply a business isn't free anymore to hang neon crap (for example) on their own property. A real principle issue that would not be settled by a compromis. But not sure there is a point in discussing this (so far) hypothetical issue

Socialistic democracy appeals a lot (if not the most) to me too.

 

But under true socialism, no one would have 'their own property'.
The neon sign would be a business decision that the entire community would play a role in, just like every other decision.

But it's more likely that the business manager would be the one to find a solution for the problem as opposed to it becoming a community decision.

 

Blake

I agree with you, Blairs government was just Tory lite, and like most lite beers it was unsatisfactory on many levels. But there were still Labour MP’s that called themselves socialists, and there were many in the Labour party who were socialist although many ripped up their membership cards after 2003).

It goes back to what I said before about politicians been seduced by neo-liberal/free market ideas and coming to believe that there really wasn’t an alternative (it was the same with Clinton).

As I’ve said once the market ideas of targets came in so did the rot, education needs reform but the free market model doesn’t work in such systems.

 

In many places that wouldn’t just be allowed anyway, an owner might need planning permission granted by the local council (an elected body).

 

It's very rare that anyone is required to buy a product or service in America from one source. Businesses are constantly trying to guess what their customer base is willing to pay for, and what the market price is going to be. Don't like the choices that your customers are making? Tough. They don't care what the owners think is fair or right. Today's customers are very cynical and disloyal.

The neighborhood already decides. They vote with their money, and there are zoning ordinances.

How would a new business get started? I wouldn't start one under those conditions. There would be no motivation.

It's hard enough already. The majority of all new businesses fail.

 

What would motivate you to start a new business ?

 

That seems to differ. Chick fil a is a good example

 

The chance to make good money from doing something that fills a need.

For a business owner, profit is the reward for taking a risk and doing a good job.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. How is that business different?

 

I think the best economic form is a good mix of capitalism and socialism. There should be a free market for non necessities and the government should either provide necessary services such as education and healthcare, or at the very least fix pricing to prevent price gouging, I.e. The disaster that is American healthcare.

neither economic theory is completely good or bad. Things are rarely that black and white

 

Sorry for the lack of clarity, I ment what you said about the customers and how disloyal they all seem to you and that they don't care about what the owners of the businesses they shop at think is fair or right. There actually is a whole (relatively) new market for people who do care about what such owners think and how they act on it!

QFT

 

Yes, that is an emerging subset of the free market. It's an example of customers being free to judge a company by any standards that they choose, fair or unfair.

 

You asked: Who should get to decide if there is a bar or pizza place in your neighborhood, and what their prices should be?
Did I not answer your question?

The motivation is that the government provides for its citizens.

The people would own the business, and everyone who works in the business would work for the people.

Socialism revolves around public ownership, not private enterprise.

 

Sure it is part of the free market. So what? You asked what my point was and my point is that the existence of such a market makes certain that a lot of customers DO care about what the owners of shops think is fair or right and how they act upon it.

 

Right. It's the owners who don't get a say in the matter. If the owners think the public is treating them a certain way based on false rumors, misunderstandings, or moral character flaws such as racism or homophobia, there isn't much they can do about it. They can't hire a lawyer and sue the public for discrimination. They can buy advertising time to tell their side of the story, but there is no guarantee that anyone will be persuaded to change their mind. Customers are accountable to no one for their actions.

This all comes back full circle to the education issue. Why doesn't a free market work well with education? Because parents don't have to use good judgment in choosing a school. Too often, they want to pay for their kids to receive right wing indoctrination, such as being taught that the Bible is perfectly accurate down to the smallest detail, and that global warming is not taking place, and that evolution did not ever take place, no matter what the consensus might be among scholars.

 

Based on your definitions, here in Britain we have a mixture of social (I hesitate to say 'socialist' nowadays) and private or capitalist. Some state schools though are religiously affiliated, although they have to teach a national curriculum. There are also private schools that are so called faith based.

Personally, I'm not in favour of private education. In this country it serves to perpetuate the old fashioned class system. The famous 'old boy network'. Something I find anachronistic. People are socialized to think of themselves as superior to the plebeian crowd.

Schools should be run by the state, maybe on a local level, and parents should be part of their governance.
In recent times, we've had a system in place where theoretically parents get a choice of which state school they want their kids to attend. This has led to the creation of league tables of school's performance, based on tests given to the children at intervals. On one hand it might help identify schools that are not performing well, but it also leads to a culture of children being taught specifically to score well in the tests.

I feel that a lot of modern education is mainly learning disconnected facts and not really about maximizing children's potential. At worst it just becomes 'training' for the low pay job market.

 

I don't know how a classless, stateless society would promote the 'party line'. They would probably promote Communism in the same way the Capitalist education systems promote Capitalism. If we ever do achieve Communism then they will probably look at Capitalism similar to the way we look at Feudalism.

 

Karen

Well in the US you have the antitrust laws which ‘regulates the conduct and organization of business corporations, generally to promote fair competition for the benefit of consumers’ they were brought in to combat the monopolies that had come about because of more ‘free market’ policies.

What the situation that exists may not be what it was or what it could be.

The regulation that were put in place to lessen the likelihood of a crash were deregulated bringing about the conditions that allowed another great crash (which we the people are still paying for some 6 years later and will be for longer).

Also choose is often a matter of circumstance, the richer you are the greater the choices open to you in the market the lower you are the more limited the choices.

Yes just look at the illegal drugs industry for example.

 

meliai

In a lot of ways I agree but the problem is that a lot of money is spent lording the ‘free market’ while damning ‘evil socialism’ and a consequence of that being the creep of ‘free market’ thinking into areas like education.