Why Feminism is Flawed

You will have to excuse me for my ignorance, see I'm male, and although I consider myself the modern male by today's feminist standards that would include from my recent studies, but what I have found through my countless hours on the subject of feminist ideology is that (at least through my opinion) the modern feminist is utterly flawed and obsolete. To my discovery feminism hasn't been doing anything relevant to improve female power or statue for the past 70 years.

Unless you include lesbianism

Perhaps you could enlighten me on why it is feminism still existent in the 21st century?

 

Many will argue the wage gap. They do not realize that this wage gap comes from loaded statistics.

There is still a wage gap in some occasions, and in some cases, that's almost unavoidable - some cases, a female is just better suited for a job - some cases a male is. This is biological.
Men won't be getting sales positions at Victoria's Secret any time soon. The females wear the clothes, so they know what they're talking about - female consumers relate to them, and male consumers will be more likely to spend when their hormones are
raging for the hot saleswoman.

In the avoidable cases, however, that must be stopped. This is where feminism has some room to argue for itself.

Feminism as a social movement however, needs stopped. Men get it, we're inferior, you've won.

 

One reason is that, in the business world an assertive man gets treated like a great boss and an assertive woman will be thought of as a complete bitch. Our world is still full of double standards and women do not get treated equally, and those who don't see that are just fooling themselves to feel better. If somewhere in the world, girl babies are still being killed because they are viewed as "worthless" than that is a world that still needs feminism... and that shit does still happen and many other atrocious things.

Contrary to what everyone seems to think on this board, feminism for many women is about getting equal respect, not about who is better. People seem to think there is just one kind and one definition of feminism and that isn't true.

 

Source?

My mum has worked at PNC for over 30 years. Her department has three bosses. At least one of them is always female.

That somewhere also commits genocide and pays slave wages. This is a bullshit argument. We are not talking about feminism within the Eastern world.

 

Interesting confluence of details here- your username and where you chose to make your first post. This evokes the irresistible curiosity concerning your intent. If you are looking for fruitful dialog you might have selected something a bit less provocative to name yourself.

 

Ahaha =D

 

I think that small fundamentals of both sexism and racism is ingrained in our general how-we-do-things. I personally think that since there isn't designated jobs for the types of people, it brings people down in a sense. For example, back in the middle ages (or dark ages i can't remember), the poor did the labor-things while the rich made art to make the cities more prettier and prestigious. Another example is how homosexuality is becoming more liberated; before america came, the indians respected them as something else and they took a specific role. Now that it's normal to be gay, the specialness is gone. Same goes for women, I think that it's better that they play a different role. Women can do the things that men want to but i don't get why they want to. hahaha. And where our economy is gonna end up is continually outgrowing blue collar jobs, so yeah women can do them but it doesn't really help things overall when you have more people doing the same job bracket. imo
But the biggest reason why the need for difference and for arguing about feminism in the first place is because of monetary systems creating concepts of property and dominance along with the psychology humans get because of those concepts. the monetary system makes the distress of creating anything but equality.

and i don't agree with what antithesis said about assertive people, cuz I can see the difference of a crude person and just being positively assertive in both genders.

 

Patriarchy is a flawed system. It screws up men and it screws up women. Nobody can fully benefit or be completely free under this social system.

Both men and women are kept at a certain level. Women have no real sexual freedom. If we did, the terms "slut" and "whore" would not be used to describe a woman that has had more than one sexual partner. Oddly enough, other women call women these names! I hear it all the time. Why do women do this to one another? Male children are kept from certain "feminine" behaviors for fear they'll be "pussies" or "fags." Why is it okay for a little girl to play with an action figure but not okay for a little boy to play with a Barbie? Why is it okay for women to wear pants, but not okay for a man to wear a dress? There's still a blame-the-victim mentality when it comes to rape - and sometimes it's women blaming the raped woman! There's more pressure than ever on men to be hyper-masculine. Do a Google search on male action figures since the 1970s. You'll see that they've morphed into these unrealistic male ideals that are muscular and menacing. There are countless stories I could retell in here of teenage boys being driven to suicide and even murder because they don't act like "men" and are mercilessly harassed for it.

There is gender inequality all over the damned place and feminism is one movement against it. Unfortunately, the way that other genders (besides women) and other races (besides white) are screwed over in the social system is overlooked by some feminists. Also, until men quit policing other men about their behaviors and women quit policing other women about their behaviors, this stuff isn't going to go away. The pressure on both genders to be a certain way usually comes from inside that particular gender. The only times I've ever been treated as inferior by a man or talked down to because I was a woman, it was from an old man. Like 60+ I'd say. So, there still multiple generations with conflicting values and morals trying to coexist. Generations raised in the Backlash are going to have a harder time processing that there's still a problem with how men and women are tracked into society.

 

Prove to me it's a patriarchy.
These days a lot of homes don't even have fathers. Most of the families I know, the woman does the bill paying/money management. Women have equal right to vote, equal right to be elected. Women have multiple channels on TV, while men have one dedicated to them.
There is no patriarchy.

What about the term "womanizer", "heartbreaker", ??

That's a nice mix of sexism and homophobia. Either can happen under ANY system.

If anything these are evidence that we are currently in a social matriarchy.

Feminism has become a movement for women to get favored over men.
Feminism is a cause to many of the things you have listed.
I have heard all my life that girls can do whatever they want. Girl Power!
I have also heard all my life that men are pigs, we are cheaters, we are assholes.
This belief seems quite shared by 90% of feminists. Even though both you and Antithesis have proven to me to be the good kind, that truly want equality; you both have to understand you are riding a broken movement based (now) on lies and sexism.

For example, the sluts thing you used was a sexist example. There are words to describe philanderers and promiscuous people of both sexes. There are people that get looked down upon for their ways promiscuity, of both sexes. There are people that look down upon others for their promiscuity of both sexes.
Yet, you polarized it into being a gender-based issue and focused on the female part.
Not very gender equal.

 

I'll decline this golden opportunity, thank you... so as far as I'm concerned you're not excused. I do however acknowledge your claim of ignorance. Thank you for backing it up:

You don't say!

b-b-but you just claimed ignorance! Is not the act of studying the cure to ignorance? Did you not absorb anything from these countless hours of study???

Because you were kind enough to establish yourself as being ignorant of the subject and have taken the admirable effort of justifying that claim I must disqualify you as the judge of what's relevant to feminism

...and this justifies my disqualification

Look in the mirror and multiply what you see by a few million and you'll realize there's ample reason.

 

Most men I know disagree. I think the fact that feminism hasn't done anything in the modern age is because people these days all see the equality between the sexes. We are brought up that way in school. Of course there is the occasional sexist loser, but we can all deal with them, they are few.
Be optimistic.

 

I half agree with you. The government does a good job of trying to bring us up with a view of equality. Our teachers, do a good job of trying to bring us up with a view of equality.
The media is a bit fractal on the matter. It can get both misogynist and misandry at times. And really, the media probably has equal precedence as our schools now =P

Our social world is feminist. (Misandry wasn't even in the Mozilla dictionary! =P)
This whole "men are players if they sleep around, women are sluts" is completely unbased and so widespread. Feminist doctrines have worked their way into the common though.
Men are pigs. Men are cheaters. Men are only interested in sex. Men are violent. These are acceptable in today's society.
Women can't play football! would not be.

 

Right, it does go both ways to the point of idiocracy. I have been labled a sexist just for simply joking around and saying the word vagina... so there are also those who take these matters way too far. In their attempt to free the world of sexism they become the biggest sexists themselves "respect me because im woman!" ...if you get my drift....

 

Wow. I have been making arguments like this for years, and you are the first person that seems to truly get it.

I envy your optimism and ability to perceive a balance despite such things - but I just don't see it.

 

You and I were raised in the same time period. So, I heard the "Girl Power" (made popular by the Spice Girls) stuff as well. I also heard the exact same thing about men being pigs and cheaters. Ironically, I heard it mostly from my dad. I'm sure he said that stuff to me to protect my "reputation" from the "bad" men. I think that's a bit sexist, don't you? Fathers telling daughters how terrible men are so she'll stay a virgin forever? One of my professors has a son and she tells him that girls are bad because she's afraid some Jezebel (they are 12 years old) will come along and seduce him. Isn't that a bit sexist also?

Men look down on other men for being promiscuous? That's interesting and I'd like to hear more about that. I've always noticed women attacking women for sexual experience and not men doing the same to other men. Just for the record...every man I know doesn't care if his wife/girlfriend has slept with multiple men before. I've yet to hear a man complain about that.

I'll sort of agree that feminism is a broken movement. It's broken because of the women within it are going in all kinds of directions without any cooperation. I think I proved that when I made a post about the man-haters. They screw everything up. Also, the women who will fuss at men for not doing laundry, but she will then refuse to mow the lawn or change the battery in her car. Not a very equal distribution of work, eh? Not only that, these women movements have largely focused on white women. Black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, etc. women all have different experiences and they are not always addressed within feminism. It's always been white women fighting for white women (sometimes this was even divided by class) and not all women together.

You want proof that patriarchy still exists? Okay, here we go:

So, there was this Old Patriarchal system in place, right? This system kept women from voting, out of certain education opportunities, and basically kept women at home with the children and that's it. The 20th century was full of social movements against gender and racial inequalities. Suddenly, women could vote, attend the same colleges as men and get the same degrees, women could participate in politics, and get the same jobs as men. So, this Old Patriarchal system began to be dismantled, but it did not disappear entirely. Just because you cut branches off of a tree doesn't mean the tree disappears.

Patriarchy is still here. You mentioned we're in a social matriarchy. If that were true, wouldn't men be encouraged to be more "feminine"? Indeed, the definitions of masculinity and femininity are patriarchal constructs. What's the real difference between men and women? Our bodies and that's it. We have the exact same brains capable of the exact same functions. The only real difference between you and me is that you have a penis and that I have breasts and a vagina. That's it. There is nothing in either one of us that makes us more superior than the other. Anyway, "feminine" men are punished, whether they are gay or not. You and I had this discussion about lesbians and gay men and you said the social stigma is much worse for gay males than females. I agreed with you that it was true. If patriarchy was nonexistent, then why does this happen? Here's a link to a documentary called Tough Guise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP1ACIUHhp4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP1ACIUHhp4 It's about the crisis of masculinity for men. Men are encouraged to assimilate into the definitions of masculinity that patriarchy has created. The definitions throughout history hasn't changed much; men are still expected to not show weakness, still expected to be wholly heterosexual, and project an aggressive attitude. This documentary proves it. It's actually problematic because while men are being sent this message they are being told, just like you said, that they are bad and evil males. Patriarchy has been dismantled, like I said, but it's still around. It's being kept alive in a backlash to all these social movements that took place in the 20th century.

Still not convinced? Want more proof? Okay. One way social structure is conveyed is through morals and values. Where do morals and values often come from (but not always)? Religion. Two of the largest religions in the world are Christianity and Islam. They are also notoriously patriarchal. Who is the leader of Catholicism? The Pope and the Pope is always male. Even though women have attempted, and sometimes succeeded, to have leadership roles within the church, the leaders are still overwhelmingly male and those women face serious controversy. That's patriarchy in action. Even within the various forms of Protestantism, men are always the leaders and have most of the authority. Christianity itself was absorbed by the patriarchal Roman culture. Jesus wasn't a misogynist by any means and actually treated women better than the Jewish male power structure at the time. Since the Bible is the sacred text of Christianity and since it was written by, translated by, and interpreted by men, that religion is extremely patriarchal and funnels it into society. God is even given masculine traits. (Just for the record...if there is a God, I don't believe it to be masculine or feminine because those are human creations) Islam does the same thing. There are feminists within Islam, but they don't like Western feminists too much. Regardless, Islam is just as patriarchal if not more than Christianity. I can totally prove that if you're interested. Both these religions influence politics, laws, and social systems. Therefore, these political agendas, laws, and social systems will favor patriarchy.

Here's some more proof. The U.S. Supreme Court has existed since 1790 and only three women have served on it. No one is elected to the Supreme Court by voters; they are appointed by the President and it must be confirmed by the Senate. This means that for over 200 years the laws and constitution of the US have overwhelmingly been interpreted and enforced by mostly men. Now, I don't know how these women are treated by their fellow justices or how they treat them in return. But...this is one place where women lack equality with men. Women in politics is still controversial. Men and women express concern over the potential of a female president. Usually this reason is given: because women are too emotional to make such important decisions. Now that's not everyone, but that's a common reason given. That's patriarchy working right there. Men and women are capable of great leadership, but women are given less of a chance at a national level. Empress Wu, Nur Jahan, Elizabeth I, Margaret Thatcher, Indra Gandhi are all examples of adequate female leadership. Men and women are both capable of this, but men are given more opportunity when it comes to high political status. Hilary Clinton and Sarah Palin were torn apart by the media. Palin still is. I don't personally care for either one of them, but their gender didn't really help them out all that much.

Here's some more. Actually this is more of proof about how patriarchy is flawed and women cannot realistically assimilate into it. Remember Abu Ghraib? That was female-sexual sadism in action. Sexual sadism has always been attributed to men and often times wrongfully so. The actions of these women were also a product of patriarchy. Were these women forced into doing these things? Probably not. A woman was running the prison! But Abu Ghraib proves that women are not morally superior to men - one argument early feminists liked to use. It also proves that patriarchy is flawed and that women are attempting to assimilate into a flawed system when the system needs to be changed.

I could have brought up rape and domestic violence as evidence of patriarchy, but...I have a headache now. If you're interested, we can debate that as well

Women and men can do bad things. Women and men can do good things. But this social system is determined that men and women should be treated as completely different things. The only differences are biology; everything else is mostly socialized. The pieces of patriarchy left over are not as overwhelming as in the past. But it's still around, still trying to define what a man is and where a woman should be. There are people who resist this and that's good, but there are so many that do not. I think religion is the largest carrier of these ideas, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not attacking you when I say these things. I know full and well by now that you're a good guy. I like it when you point out how men have equality issues. But I think we differ on where we think it comes from. I just don't think feminism, at this current point in time, is big enough or organized enough to do much more than argue within itself. But I think patriarchy still has some power. If you want more evidence of anything I've said then just ask and I'll do the best that I can.

 

Yes. It's interesting that more parents don't do the rational approach of educating them on how to see past what a person says.

Well, I think that last part is another one based on biological difference. Men are more rational, while women are more emotional. This makes men more likely to have rational ideals as far as their partner's sexual past. I have heard many a virgin or inexperienced man feel uncomfortable about being with experienced women though.
Most of the men I know, are sexually promiscuous, but look down upon those that use women as objects. There are a few exceptions within the social circles I'm in, but we'll let them know when they cross the line, at times.

Where we would differ here, is I think sexism is at the heart of modern feminism; where as you seem to think of it more as a cancer, threatening modern feminism's true heart.

Because if you cut off the trunk to a tree, the roots can take years to die, and even regrow the tree if allowed. Men ARE becoming more feminine, and females are becoming more masculine. This is evident in the metrosexual movement, emo culture, etc.

That only proves that patriarchies influence hasn't fully ended – not that it is the main system. I haven't watched it in full, to be honest, but yeah.

The quickest growing “faith” in the Western world is atheism. Religions such as Christianity are being practiced way less organized than ever before.

But it's hard to say how much their gender actually hurt them. So far this seems to be where your argument has the most strength. But you have to admit, America has never had a Margaret Thatcher type candidate.

That's actually an interesting point, that I can easily flip against you. Acts of male-sexual submission are very heavily on the rise. The new big thing in BDSM clearly illustrates subconscious insecurity of males and whites. Cuckolding, where usually white husbands are insulted while they watch their usually white wifes get fucked, usually by a black, and are quite often forced to eat the “stud”'s cum off of their wife.

Domestic violence on males is also on a sharp rise.

I think religion is the largest carrier of patriarchial-based sexism, and I think repentant liberals are the largest carriers of matriarchial sexism.

And you haven't been the least bit offensive, don't worry about that =)

 

Well, for instance, I recently read about a so-called feminist who started a porno magazine for women.

On the one hand, this objectifies males. On the other hand, we shouldn't be being objectified.

Women really don't feel as strong or equal to males...simultaneously, women don't want weak males. Basically it seems like they want us to be fuck machines.

 

Yes!

And not all porn objectifies - some is the celebratory material it should be.
For instance, kink.com which focuses on fetish/BDSM, has interviews after all it's videos whether it's Hogtied or MenInPain, talking to the actors, asking if they had fun and what not.

Porn that supports unrealistic standards of people, objectifies. Porn with range, and put into an objective context, can avoid objectifying.

 

Masculinity and femininity are social constructions to begin with. I don't see men becoming more feminine. I see men, at least in my tiny part of the world, becoming more indifferent. They're not mean or aggressive, but they're not "feminine" or sensitive either. They're somewhere in the middle. I can see how women are becoming more "masculine" in attitude but not in appearance.

If you get a chance, watch the whole thing. It was produced, written, and presented by men. So don't worry - there are no crazy feminazis involved Well, you asked me to prove patriarchy's existence and I did. It's still here. The documentary sort of covers this - not really all that well - but we're in the middle of a Backlash against a Backlash against another Backlash. That makes no sense whatsoever, right? In the context of all of recorded human history, the mid-20th century was pretty much yesterday. It wasn't all that long ago. The social movements in the 1960s and 1970s made some progress. But there was a Backlash against them in the 1980s and into the 1990s. Then there was a Backlash against that - often referred to as "3rd wave feminism". Some people have no idea that this ever occurred and is still, sort of, occurring now. It's because, like I said before, it's unorganized and doesn't recognize how female equality should not come at the expense of inequality for men. It also falls short of recognizing racial differences. Black women are treated differently than white women, but "3rd wave" seems to overlook that. It's nowhere near as monumental as the suffragettes or the alleged "bra-burners". So, there's a Backlash against the 3rd wave now. The documentary spells it out pretty clearly and proves that patriarchy is still being kept alive. Now, does this apply to all areas of life? No. Women can vote - has patriarchy disappeared in that context? Yes. Women can be educated and receive the same degrees as men - has patriarchy disappeared in this context? Yes. I pointed out the Supreme Court - has patriarchy disappeared in that context? No.

Atheism may be growing but it still barely registers on the radar in comparison to Christianity and Islam. In the US 76.5% of people are Christians. Atheism = 0.4%. Atheism can grow all it wants to, but Christianity is a global-political force as well as Islam. Christianity has way more influence on social structure and laws than Atheism. If it didn't, "one nation under God" would have disappeared from the Pledge of Allegiance by now. Atheist school children still have to hear this. Atheists still have to endure harassment from the dominant religious culture. The influence of religion can also be regional. Here in the South (well, VA isn't really the South) religion is everywhere. Open up a phone book for my city and you will spend pages up on pages looking for a church. Almost half of those are Baptists and the majority are Protestant. Religion has such a hold on this state that in 2004 Virginians voted to ban gay marriage. Islam is 19.9% of the world population (compared to Christianity 32.9%) and where it is regionally stronger also influences laws and social structure. In case you're wondering where I got these numbers - religioustolerance.org. I'm not a big fan of organized religion. But all major religions have succumbed to patriarchal structures at some point in their history. Even Buddhism. I can totally prove that if you want some evidence.

Nope. No Margaret Thatchers here.

Okay. There's all kinds of pornography for every kind of fetish you and I could think of. Now, I would want to know who the audience is for what you mentioned. There must be people watching this. Otherwise, it wouldn't exist. Is the audience for that white men? White women? Black men? In that kind of pornography, it looks like the white woman and the white man are both being degraded somehow. So who do you think is watching it?

Rape and domestic violence, whether its inflicted upon men or women, has no accurate statistics. Much of it goes unreported. Women can and do abuse their male partners and children. What's the difference between that and male abuse on women and/or children? Female abusers are not always systematic. It's usually an outburst of anger. For example, I've seen/heard police reports of domestic abuse situations. The woman strikes the man and the man strikes her back while arguing. The cops are called. The woman blames the man, of course, but is told that she will be arrested as well because she hit him first! In cases of male abusers, it's about power and control. Women are capable of doing this, of course. But it's less common. I've seen men with scratches down their backs and face from a woman clawing them during an argument. It's messed up.

Glad I'm not offensive

 

theres always gonna be a group of people race, religion, sex, that always will think the opposite of them is inferior, then there are people that recognize everyone as equal and we're all in this world together. women think most men are pussy fiending assholes looking for their next fuck, men think women that sleep around are skanks and must have vaginas beaten looser than a baseball glove. Then there is white people that think they are smarter than blacks, just like there is black people that think they are stronger and more physically advanced than whites. people get stuck into believing they are superior than their opposites, but only if they knew humans dont have opposites dammit so lets all hold hands and sing kumbaya, we are all 99.9 percent alike, its that .1 that truly makes us unique not superior.