Why so few?

If nearly the whole of India are devout Hindus, integrating their practice into every day of their life, than why does it seem that so few reach enlightenment? With all of their elaborate rituals and the opportunity they have in their society to be spiritual, why so few? I guess I don't know how many are truly enlightened, but it seems to me that whenever anyone is a big deal is made about it. I guess I could say the same for all other religions, like Catholicism with the nuns and all of the devout church goers. What are these people doing wrong? Not sincere? Wrong intentions?

 

The key is sincerity, do they want a relationship with god or do they want something from god.

The Hindus have a great opportunity but are blinded by the temporary material things like all other faiths. That is sad because the goal in life is to reestablish our relationship with god not to chase after the temporary. If one is sincere he must approach a bona fide spiritual master.

Krishna says:

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth." 4.34 Bhagavad gita

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple.

http://www.krishna.com/gitaframeset/gita_frameset.html

 

Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Chapter 7, Text 3:

Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

Gospel of Matthew, Ch.7, verses 13 & 14:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

These verses from the scriptures of both Hinduism and Christianity simply state that spiritual perfection is extremely rare. I'd say the reasons for this are as numerous as there are individuals.

 

A lot of what is labelled 'Hinduism' is like all other outward, exoteric religion. It is mainly rituals and so on, traditions, all that stuff.

I think it's probably a mistake to imagine that the majority of Hindus are engaged in anything more than that. It's the same in all religions - how many Buddhists get enlightened? How many Christians truly exemplify Christ's teaching?

I'd like to suggest, Razor, that there is a difference between the religion of 'Hinduism' and the practice of Yoga.

Many people who practice various forms of yoga do get spiritual benefit from it. Some become famous seers or gurus - many more pass their lives quietly, not seeking the attention of the world. Thats true both of Indian born people and westerners who are yogis.

One other thing too - the spiritual comsciousness of a person may not be evident to the outer world.

 

For every realized master teaching vedanta to the masses, there are a dozen who choose to remain anonymous, withdrawn from the world, in silent meditation. Many other function in the world as regular people, you and I would not know the difference, except that their action has a glow of its own, and they carry a faint aura of love and joy everywhere.

There are many many more realized souls than we know.

Why worry about them?

Let us strive to reach the highest within ourselves, then these trivial matters of the world willall resolve themselves.

 

I guess I was just feeling doubtful when I posted that. I'm glad I found you people because I happen to be one of those people that quietly and inwardly lives spiritually, yet on the outside I'm sure I seem pretty regular. Away from what I say to you here I have no others to help me along the path, let alone people that even know I'm on a path at all. I agree with you completely Bhaskar, when you say not to worry about such people, especially now that I can see firsthand how doing so was affecting my progress.

 

the process of yoga teaches one to see all as enlightened and to see the special grace inhabiting others... even jedi and your application of yogic teachings as seeing billions of hindoos as failures could be a sign of a misunderstanding... not that i'm not seeing you as enlightened in your misunderstandings

and too, for many bhakti schools, while there is great joy in having virtual realizations of one's ishta, the goal itself is always bhakti and more bhakti and there's quite a bit of bhakti going on in india

 

??? I've never come across such a teaching - if it exists it's clearly incorrect.

 

it is purely a devotional sentiment... seeing the best and the divine in all... and too, in some way, that is the truth

namaste is a greeting that acknowledges seeing and honoring the divine in all

i can't say too much more about this else i would be making you wrong and therefore not seeing your divinity

 

You don't see all as enlightened, but you see all as a manifestation of the divinity awakened within you. Then there is no self and other, all is only one lord. Then there is no more question of enlightenment or lack thereof, even that dualism melts away.

 

It melts away only for the person having this experience of seeing the Divine as All. The fact is that from the viewpoint of the other beings, they are not seeing That. To see someone as being in God, or part of God, or an aspect of the whole isn't the same as seeing them as enlightened. The 'others' - the separate individuals still exist, and they are still in ignorance.
Hence the vow of the Bhodisattva in Mahayana Buddhism not to enter the final Nirvana until all beings enter there.

 

Bhagavad gita 4.3

That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend and can therefore understand the transcendental mystery of this science.
PURPORT
There are two classes of men, namely the devotee and the demon. The Lord selected Arjuna as the recipient of this great science owing to his being a devotee of the Lord, but for the demon it is not possible to understand this great mysterious science. There are a number of editions of this great book of knowledge. Some of them have commentaries by the devotees, and some of them have commentaries by the demons. Commentation by the devotees is real, whereas that of the demons is useless. Arjuna accepts Śrī Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and any commentary on the Gītā following in the footsteps of Arjuna is real devotional service to the cause of this great science. The demonic, however, do not accept Lord Kṛṣṇa as He is. Instead they concoct something about Kṛṣṇa and mislead general readers from the path of Kṛṣṇa's instructions. Here is a warning about such misleading paths. One should try to follow the disciplic succession from Arjuna, and thus be benefitted by this great science of Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā.


http://www.krishna.com/gitaframeset/gita_frameset.html

Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature. B.G. 7.5


10.12-13 Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth. You are the eternal, transcendental, original person, the unborn, the greatest. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa confirm this truth about You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.

 

If you're trying to make a particular point here it's not clear what it is at all.

 

he working on his copy and pasteing skills... ok, you can stop now, they are divine

 

Actually Molly, they're flawed. I looked again at the verse BG 7. 5 - what we have here is more 'revisionism' in fact -

Thats what has been copied and pasted - but I looked at my original 1972 Bhagavad Gita as it is, and the text reads:

"Besides this inferior nature, O mighty Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which consists of all living entities who are struggling with material nature and who are sustaining the universe."

It really distorts SP's translation somewhat - in fact 'exploiting the rescources' and 'sustaining the universe' seem like very diferent processes to me.

Same verse, trans Sri Aurobindo:

"This is the lower .But know my other Nature different from this, O mighty armed, the Supreme which becomes the Jiva and by which this world is upheld"

 

Bhaskar said, "You don't see all as enlightened, but you see all as a manifestation of the divinity awakened within you. Then there is no self and other, all is only one lord. Then there is no more question of enlightenment or lack thereof, even that dualism melts away."

I agree in a way Bhaskar... Here is who I deal with this issue.

In my experience I live with three perceptual outlays of how this subject (what people think of when I say me or I, usually) percieves the stimuli around him. I call these channels 1, 2, and 3... I am watching a movie on TV, with a star, ganjaprince... different scenes, and all kinds of characters.

This channel and 1, 2, and 3 thing was given to me by Ram Dass at a retreat called dance of the souls... I have been experiencing these different channels, but used different maps... Ram Dass's map appealed to me, and was simple, so I decided to use it... After this God confirmed that I should use this map by an amazing sign... I was randomly assigned an apartment for college, and the apartment number was

"B-32" I stayed in room number 1

I took this to mean... Be GOD on channel 3, soul on channel 2, and take care of the form on channel 1, Eric, so that you may serve God, through your very BEING.

I have gotten the cosmic joke and can't take myself seriously anymore, people know me as the happy kid, I have had 2 major psychotic ego trips that landed me in mental hospitals yet they helped me see the joke of my ego, so I see them as essential to my spiritual development... It also helped me realize that I am a beginner, and to work on working on my ego, rather then try to turn other people on.

Channel 1 = Material plane, distinctions, differences, pleasure pain, different people, seperation... an ego with emotions, thoughts, desires, fears and so on.


Part of me is lost in channel 1 and has many attachments and aversions to work on... Through the grace of my guru, through many mystical openings, practices such as 60+ psychedelic trips, use of ganja, meditation, chanting, mantras, tantra, and many other practices... (my true practice is BEING HERE NOW, which always these other practices are about. ) Anyway through all this, I have been able to have an everyday mystical knowledge of "higher" state of consciousness, and live in them... as a beginner...

On to the higher channels...

Channel 2 = individual expressions of consciousness beyond body yet in form... called soul by some. Souls travels from universe to universe, through incarnations on planets, in other astral dreams... the soul travels are infinite... soul ultimately want to escape the cycle of incarnations, and merge with god, yet souls get lost in incarnations that exist on channel 1... which encompasses all, it is the one conciousness, the only true reality. God however prevents this, to continue the dream. This all occurs beyond time and space, and within time and space of course. On this channel, I percieve myself as a soul (I recall some of my past lives), I see other souls dancing in the dream... I yearn to be with god on channel 3

Channel 3 = Reality, the one consciousness that is all, beyond time and space and in time and space.

On channel 3, which is the one consciousness channel... everybody is THE GURU, who is enlightened... while on the outside a form may be saying "fags must die" that is on channel 1, the material plane, the dream, the illussion, dance and leela... on channel 3 I get a message from the guru...


In this way I see all as enlightened... because the person may be saying something hateful, but then they may say the word "NOW" what could be more enlightening then reminding me to say now... or they may hold up one finger, reminding me that it is all one consciousness...

Even if they don't do these two very common actions... I can still see this part in them, behind the hate and channel 1 stuff... that loves me and sees me and IS ME. This part gives me the message of the guru, which is to REMEMBER GOD in every moment which is one of the most important teachings of my guru...

This makes life a whole lot more easier I have found.

 

heh, only a few? , well I certainly disagree, we are on the same path and the end destination is Him, whether we go there after this life or the next is dependent upon what we choose. It is like flying to Chicago from New york, you can go by the car, which will take you 2 days, you can go by flight and that will take you 2 hours... or you can walk, but really, you are going to chicago and the fact remains. You are bound to get enlightened, either in this life or the next or maybe after a 100 to 1000 or probably a million births... but you are bound to get enlightened.

And there are many factors that prevent us from getting enlightened, our one biggest obstacle is our own Karma, our own doings which trap us in our own vasanas and in this maya. We have to shed these vasanas, look at krishna with in our heart... and when we decide to do that and stick to it, we have already gone half way. Its always good to remember that if we take one step towards God, he will take 100 steps toward us.

 

BlackBillBlake
The translation you have given doesn’t make sense to me.


Same verse, trans Sri Aurobindo:

"This is the lower .But know my other Nature different from this, O mighty armed, the Supreme which becomes the Jiva and by which this world is upheld"

The statement, the Supreme which becomes the Jiva




There are four sampradaya from Lord Krishna, which one are you initiated into? From which is this translation coming from? Who is it by? I am initiated into the BRAHMA Vaisnava Sampradaya Disciplic Succession
1. Kṛṣṇa
2. Brahmā
3. Nārada
4. Vyāsa
5. Madhva
6. Padmanābha
7. Nṛhari
8. Mādhava
9. Akṣobhya
10. Jaya Tīrtha
11. Jñānasindhu
12. Dayānidhi
13. Vidyānidhi
14. Rājendra
15. Jayadharma
16. Puruṣottama
17. Brahmaṇya Tīrtha
18. Vyāsa Tīrtha
19. Lakṣmīpati
20. Mādhavendra Purī
21. Īśvara Purī, (Nityānanda, Advaita)
22. Lord Caitanya
23. Rūpa, (Svarūpa, Sanātana)
24. Raghunātha, Jīva
25. Kṛṣṇadāsa
26. Narottama
27. Viśvanātha
28. (Baladeva) Jagannātha
29. Bhaktivinoda
30. Gaurakiśora
31. Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī
32. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Svāmī Prabhupāda
33. Jayapataka Swami

My name is Mahabala Nitai dasa

KUMARA
Vaisnava Sampradaya
Disciplic Succession to Kesava Kasmiri
SRI
Vaisnava Sampradaya
Disciplic Succession to Ramanuja
BRAHMA
Vaisnava Sampradaya
Disciplic Succession to Madhvacarya
RUDRA
Vaisnava Sampradaya
Disciplic Succession to Sridhara Swami

 

and are you presenting this as a diksha or a siksha line of succession?

either of which, gaurakishora was not a siksha or diksha successor to bhaktivinoda

 

Well,you did post an inaccurate quotes from Vaishnava literature. One might expect more attention to detail.

If it isn't the Supreme that becomes the Jiva, then what is it?

But I posted the quote from Sri Aurobindo's Gita to show a concurrence between his version of the 'Jiva upholding the world', and Prabhupada's original translation (later changed by followers) of 'living entities...sustaining the universe'. What you posted doesn't concur with either version.

Another translation of the verse, by Prabhavanda/Isherwood:

"You must understand that behind this, and distinct from it, is That which is the principle of consciousness in all beings, and the source of life. It sustains the universe"

So 3 versions, including Prabhupada's disagree with the version you posted.