Why.?

If the universe was created.
Why was it created to look like it evolved.?

Occam

 

I see life like a big complex perfect quilt all knitted together perfectly. The fact that the threads of the quilt (us) are constantly refined to make us fit more comfily into the quilt gives the appearance of evolution. We are guided by forces that refine us, so naturally we evolve, however these forces are intentional, not blind and unguided.

We start out at a point that is good for us to learn about these forces (it's good to know that you should not intentionally harm someone). Sometimes you have to go through the experience or thought of harm to yourself in order to know that it would be wrong to do to another, and right to teach another not to harm others by inflicting harm upon them (with the intent of teaching them not to harm others) without being overzealous. If we are going to live in heaven, we have to learn how to treat eachother without overreacting- and living in this world teaches us that. The perfect treatment of another is acceptance and love with just the right touch of correction so that they learn to be pleasing to all (including their own self).

God does not overcorrect or overrule, God let's us go upon our paths with the lightest of guidance, so faint that many caught up in thoughts about the world do not acknowledge this guidance in their lives as intentional (leading them to learn how to love). These people don't see that the forces that they claim are unintelligent and uncaring laws teach them to care for others because they are intelligent and caring laws set down by a perfect being. You can see that atheists care for others in the way they worry about the world and how others feel- they have great love and care in them, but they lack the love of and knowledge for the one that set these forces in place with infinite love and compassion. They will be taught that the forces are intentional when the time is right for them to make the next step in their evolution.

These forces do mold us, we do "evolve", but it is intentional, not some wierd uncaring glitch in an unintentional reality that gives arise to us.

 

So what your saying (being the devil's advocate here, no offense Kharakov) is that me being where I am now doing what I am is the product of not my own will/desire/attempt/etc., but because of the rules that one being (on a higher heirarchial plateau than us) has defined? This would lead to the conclusion that there is no free will ... would you agree with that?

By a similar token, if there is no God, is it possible for (or rather, reasonable to believe) free will to even exist in a realm that is driven only by the physical?

 

This answer you just inquired after is asked from an arbitrary view or a pseudo-scienctific one. My point being; this question arises from whims and desires, it should read:

"If the universe evolved by it self,
then why does it like like it was created?"

I assume you recognize the discussions about the so called "anthropic fine tuning" of this universe. If Newtons gravitation contant "G" would be changed by a few numbers or Plancks contant life may not be possible to live. Michael Denton speaks about many such issues in his books "Natures destiny". He writes about the expansionrate, the fitness of metals and carbon and other such things like the nanomanipulators.

Occam, the heavens and the earth testify clearly that the universe has indeed been created.

Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men who understand.[Koran 3.190]

 

The Universe "became." It is still "becoming." What's the point in trying to determine whether it was created or if it evolved, or if it's actually just a waking dream, or whatever. Why spend your time probing for answers that you already know? If you examine your evidence you will only discover that what you already believed is true. The answer matters not - we won't truely know in this life, anyway. Just BE!

 

Yes, this question has been asked before on other threads by occam..
The reason it is being asked again,, is because it was never answered.
[by creationists]
And still has not.

1. Kharakov
Occam was not talking of human evolution.
We are but a microscopic part of the universe
let the question be repeated

"If the UNIVERSE was created .
Why was it created to look like it evolved"

Creationists say EVERYTHING was created as is by god...no?

2. Hikaru
[to your last sentance]
But what if the laws of reality are the work of god.? And the 'mearly
physical' is exactly how god manipulates/creates.
Occam has found many who believe that god created everything.
Yet those same people will not countenance the idea that
god creates/directs.using the laws of reality.
They want god to have 'created directly'
Not..
created a system that results in us.
[which is exactly how occam opinions it to be ]

Occam has even met those that say god CANNOT created a
natural system that results in humans....yet he can create
the entire universe EX NIHILO.

3.Slutter McGee
The question occam asks in no way conflicts with the idea of direction
or a god.
It asks those that believe everything was created in 10k BC.
Why it was created to look 14 billion years old.

4.Cabdirazaqq
Incorrect..This question arises for the reasons given in the answer above to Mr McGee.

Occam did not say there was no direction in reality..He asks those that
promote the simplistic 'everything was created' line. To explain why everything [the universe] ;looks like it is a result of a 14 billion year process.

Your comments about 'anthropic fine tuning' are not relavant.
If you were a 3mm tall being in a universe of gravity 10 times
as strong as our universe..you would still call yourself human.
If you were a silicon based lifeform in a universe of altered planks constant
you would still call yourself human.
WHO SAYS SELF AWARE LIFE IS ONLY CARBON BASED BIPEDS?

The anthropic principle is ironically anthropic
But you are on the right track..you actually admit that the LAWS of
reality might have something to do with the way reality is today.

And your koran quotes are real cute..but totally opinion.

5. Know1nozme
You ask WHY we wish to know this?

Why not?

Occam

 

Occam,

I actually asked what was the point in trying to find the answer to the question. Simple human curiosity is reason enough to want to know the answer. However, only patience will provide an answer - and then only if our conciousnesses survive the transfer from the living state to whatever lies beyond (if anything). No amount of probing on your part will reveal this mystery to you. It is a futile waste of time that could be better spent living and experiencing the universe.

 

Know1nozme

Please describe your ideas on how occam would best spend his time
in "living and experiencing the universe".?

Occam

 

cabdizarraq: Kind of off topic, but since you seem to be knowledgable about Islam, perhaps you can answer this question for me: What is the correct and/or proper way to spell (Koran / Quran / etc.)?

know1nozme: It does seem a bit rediculous to be pondering these things, doesn't it? =P Just remember, pondering all of these things is a big PART OF experiencing life and living it to its fullest. It is seeking answers and reason where there seem to be none ... seeking answers to the most difficult questions; it is quite an invigorating challenge! =)

 

Thanks Hikaru.

No. What you are doing is a product of the interaction of your will with other wills within the rules that God has created (along with your will) to perfect your will.

Damn sentence is a mamajama. If you can't understand it, tell me. Cuz I barely understand it myself, and I wrote it. (added at last minute before I head to lowes to pick up paint)

Depends on the definition of free will we are discussing. If we are speaking of voluntary choice, we do have that. If we are speaking of "the ability to choose without prior cause or divine intervention", I would say that we do not have this definition of free will.

No, not if you mean physical as in "blind uncaring physical laws". If there was no intent (emotional, caring intent) there would be no voluntary choices (voluntary choice requires intent). (btw- God exists)

 

Kharakov

Occam sees NO link between choice and some sort of 'intent/caring'
imbedded in the physical laws.
Choice is OPTIONS between two or more paths of action.
The options and paths are allowed by the physical laws.

Before the universe had evolved to a point where self aware
beings existed.
There was no 'choice'..everything was gross determinism.
Now, self aware beings exist.
There is choice.

Thus reality can have choice..or not..depending on the existance of self aware beings.
If the physical laws do not allow self aware beings to exist.
Then there is no choice.

Thus for choice to exist..the physcal laws must alow such beings.
And occam opinions that 'direction' made sure the physical laws of this universe allowed it.

God created us using a machine
Just like we create cars.
Is this blasphemy?
or just pragmatism?
[the best way to make cars and self aware beings]

Occam

[btw..god may exist]

 

I don't usually agree with you, but I do agree with you here. From a human's perspective, free will is the ability to make a choice that we desire over a choice that we desire less. That we do have. From a numen's perspective, however ... do we really have control over exactly WHAT we desire? Perhaps we don't indeed have free will. But since I am a human, I look at it only from my perspective; even if my free will is an illusion, then I still have the illusion called "free will."

Edit: [btw - "God" doesn't exist though a different higher being may]

Edit 2: Looks like we have all shades of people under this roof ... all of us claiming to be philosophers, all of us having different beliefs and opinions and claiming to have found truth in them.

 

It's the loving intent behind the machine that matters. Direction.

 

I have my self speculated quite gently about what "they" mean by "experiencing the universe" , or "grasping every second by enjoying it" or other meaningless hubble of words. What do they truly mean by this? Cabdirazzaq knows not.

 

You could be at the point in life where you except every moment as a blessing.

 

To say it was created would have to mean it evolved after it was created, but

to say it wasn't created could go more than one way 1.meaning that it's always been there, 2. that it's an illusion. (maybe there's more)

 

Kharakov..

Then we are entirely in agreement.

God/Direction..has set the machine to produce self aware beings.

This resolves the contradictions.
Evolution is the working process of the machine.
[how god creates]
Religion is a human construct to answer our intuitive
belief that there is direction.
The machine...existant reality, was not created..
It has ALWAYS existed.
Direction has set the machine [or a part of it] to do its intent.

From this perspective.
All paths allowed by observed phenomena are valid.
[Without contradiction]

Occam

"I am not in buildings of stone or wood.
Split a branch and there i am.
Lift a stone, and you will find me."

 

Forest_pixie84

Occam suggests reality has ALWAYS EXISTED.
[in one form or another]

Nowhere in ANY human experience.Is the ANY evidence
that reality has not always existed.

If there is NO such evidence..Why do we say god created reality?
Because we are simple and mortal.
We [as human structures]have a beginning.
thus we think everything does... rubbish

Occam

 

Kharakov

You mean..When any moment could be your last.?

If we all started living like that...
Well..could you live with the idea that you helped kill
consumerism?

Occam

 

Occam, as to the other message, I feel the love.

I don't think so, I think I mean treating every moment as precious, but not treating any as your last.

Only if I can eat consumerism after we kill it.