Will US lose to China?

We went backpacking around China last year and I was amazed at the amount of new developement that is going on there. Equally impressive is the speed at which it is getting done, mostly at the expense of the older, more poor of China. But for a communist country, capitalism is very much alive and well in many of the big cities with new and modern office buildings, housing developements that equal those in the West, huge commercial centers, cell phone everywhere, and a vast selection of modern convenience items available in the stores (and very cheap for western pocketbooks). A big difference from the way I saw the Soviet East Bloc countries had it back in the cold war days. Rural China is still very much rural, but is China going to be able keep up this fast paced economic growth (mostly with western help and financing) to where it overtakes the US as the leading global economic leader? What do you think are the Chinese strengths and weaknesses that would allow them to pull it off? Should the average American be concerned with what's happening in China economically in the long and short term?

 

I think it already has.

Their greatest strength is a huge low paid labor pool.

 

most certainly, the US. is to full of its self & to stupid to compete w/ china.

 

Who loans the US money, China. Checkmate China.

 

It's all by design. China was set up to do EXACTLY what it's doing (with the help of our "elected" officials, of course) and this was planned years in advance. At the top levels, the people who run China are, and are working with, the same people who control the western economy -- the same central bankers. So the only people who will lose out because of this selling out of America is you and me. Those at the top will only benefit as America sends the last of its manufacturing jobs abroad in this pre-planned post-industrial era, which is to predate the totalitarian-socialist-neofeudalist society which we now see emerging as part of the New World Order/One World Government agenda.

 

Except that as the economy develops, low-paid labour dries up.

Not only that, but the price of labour is often incidental in terms of efficiency - investment in capital is much more important in the huge majority of industries (in which the developed nations have a 150 year headstart).

 

But doesn't any successful, economically sound and expansionist nation require an established middle class to maintain production/growth/fiscal stability? China does not have a middle class to speak of, just puppet bureaucrats, cronyism, inept managers, corrupt officials and the like.

 

Well, in case you've been living with your head in the sand, the middle class in America is eroding FAST, and in a few years there will be no more middle class. Besides, everything you mentioned in your last sentence could just as easily apply to the US, with its "puppet bureaucrats," "cronyism," and "inept managers."

 

until the huge low paid labor pool wants to start getting paid

 

There is no polution abatement, How long untill this catches up ?

 

Pressed - The point is that all those people I listed are all party associates. Every one of them have political ties and are representative of party concerns and are answerable to only the party and the party is only concerned with what drives party issues. That is their middle class for the most part. Whereas in America, under our capitalist system, our middle class is driven by individuals under a free market system concerned with market issues, production quotas and comsumer demands. Apples and oranges. Head in the sand? Do you know anything about economics, the capitalist system, international trade, consumer economics or consumerism or anything that has anything to do with how the world makes a living? Philisophical dogma is bought and sold in this world just like any other commodity. It keeps publishers in the black. That's why you can still buy "Mein Kompf".

 

China was a very isolationist country for most of it's history. It never wanted to get involved with the rest of the world, and had it's own insular economy. Now it want's to be and play with the rest of the world, and it wants to be one of the big boys. Being that it is the one last huge communist nations puts it in an unusual possition. It has to change or be left behind. Communism doesnt work. Capitalism is the wave of the future. Chinas young look to the West as an example of how they want to develope. They don't want communism, they want wealth and freedom. The government is slowly releasing it's fist from the throat of the nation of China.

 

I'm very happy to see China growing as an economic power, however, it is doing so at the expense of it's people, future, and the global environment.

 

I think you are right about China rising on the backs of it's people and causing global enviornmental problems. Something will get worked out. America is learning and has learned important enviornmental lessons. The future of China can be possitive. The US and China need to work together somehow.

 

THE CHINESE RED DRAGON is much larger (in population), than THE AMERICAN EAGLE, plus breathes fire (SOVIET MOSKIT/SUNBURN/ONYKS/YOKHANTS super-sonic, intelligent,cruise missiles) and can have a nasty bite (asymmetrical warfare).

Unless China starves itself to death, the US would have a hardtime in engaging warfare with China. What about the Korean and Vietnam conflicts and the recent Iraq war? We've had problems with these smaller countries, plus China has the latest technologies in SOVIET missile designs. No "walk in the park" here! After engaging in Iraq, the US ARMED FORCES are tired and morale seems very low. Or can a huge DRAFT fix that?

Will China invade us, or will we invade China? There have been internet reports of Chinese and Russian troops in Canada, plus Chinese dressed in Mexican military outfits (near the Mexican border). However, there is a possible internal revolution and/or civil war coming up in Mexico, which may explain that. "Reconquisto AZTLAN" is another possible up-coming revolution, where Mexican revolutionaries take over the US Southwest, declare it as the independent Hispanic nation of AZTLAN (with LOS ANGELES, CA as its new capital)! A radical Michigan Militia group had plans to bomb Russian tanks stored at Fort Grayiling (in Grayling, Michigan), but got caught before hand. Russian tanks in Michigan? What's up with that?

There were internet rumors of a USA invasion, with China storming the west coast, Russia storming the east coast and Iran attacking from the southeast coasts. Communist take over, or a take over for the New World Order? George Washington had a prophetic vision of the USA, where he foresaw the upcoming Civil War and a WW3 invasion of the USA. The USA had a hard time, until some cosmic intervention (aliens?) stopped it and saved the USA! "Remote Viewing" Tibetan Monks foresaw WW3 happening around 2010-2012, with aliens saving the Earth from its own destruction, whether out in the open, or somewhat hidden from view, but not ruling Earth.

Most likely, the NEO-CONS (PNC-types) may attack China now, before China gains any more power, and thus, becomes even more difficult to defeat. This would be an issue with EMPIRE conquests. However, China would have the "home" advantage, if we attacked China. Not good for the US!

How would an USA-led invasion of mainland China go? ASIA TIMES published two fairly-recent articles of their version of what would happen. It's not pretty! But here they are:

Online ASIA TIMES/Greater China Apr 20, 2006
SPEAKING FREELY
If it comes to a shooting war ..., By Victor N Corpus
LINK: www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HD20Ad03.html

Selected quotes:
"One could call this article a worst-case scenario for the new American century. Why worst case? Because of hard lessons from history. The Romans did not consider the worst-case scenario when Hannibal crossed the Alps with his elephants and routed them; or when Hannibal encircled and annihilated the numerically superior Roman army at the Battle of Cannae."

"The French did not considerr the worst-case scenario at Dien Bien Phu and when they built the Maginot Line, and the French suffered disastrous defeats. Again, American planners, did not consider the worst-case scenario in its latest war with Iraq, but instaed operated on the "best-case scenario", such as considering the Iraq invasion as a "cake walk" and that the Iraqi people would be parading in the streets, throwing flowers and welcoming American soldiers as "liberators", only to discover the opposite."

"Before China's economy catches up with America, and before China builds a military machine that can challenge American superpower status and world dominance, America's top strategic planners (Project for the New American Century) decide to launch a "preventive war" against China. As a pretext for this, the US instigates Taiwan to declare independence."

"China then launches a missile barrage on Taiwan. Command and control nodes, military bases, logistics centers, vital war industries, government centers and air defense installations are simultaneously hit with short and medium range ballistic missiles armed with conventional, anti-radar, thermo baric and electro-magnetic pulse warheads."

"As the aircraft carrier batttle groups advance, China draws out one of its "trump cards" by leaking to the world media that it is dumping its holdings of US Treasury bonds and shifting to gold and euros."

"The assassin's mace: China's anti-satellite weapons/ Glee and ecstacy soon turn to shock as monitor screens suddenly go blank. Then all communication via satellites goes dead. China has drawn its second "trump card" (the assassin's mace) by activating its manueuverable "parasite" micro-satellites that have unknowingly clung to vital (NORAD) radar and communications satellites and have either jammed, blinded or physically destroyed their hosts."

"This is complemented by space mines that maneuver near adversary satellites and explode. Secret Chinese and Russian ground-based anti-satellite laser weapons also blind or bring down US and British satellites used for C4ISR (command, control, communication, computers, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance). And to ensure redundancy and make sure that the adversary C4ISR system is completely "blinded" even temporarily, hundreds of select Chinese and Russian information warriors (hackers) specifically trained to attack adversary's C4ISR systems simultaneuosly launch their cyber offensive."

"Supersonic cruise missiles constitute China's third deadly "trump card" against the US - part of the so-called assassin's mace. These unstoppable cruise missiles may be armed with 440-lb to 750-lb conventional warheads (or 200-kiloton tactical nuclear warheads 10 times stronger than Hiroshima) travelling at more than twice the speed of sound (or faster than a rifle bullet)."

"The cruise missiles, together with the SRBM's and MRBM's (short and medium-range ballistic missiles) may also be armed with radio frequency weapons that can simulate the electro-magnetic pulse of nuclear explosions to fry computer chips, or fuel-air explosives that can annihilate the personnel in aircraft carriers and battleships without destroying the platforms."

"Not only China and Russia have these modern cruise missiles, so do Iran, India and North Korea. These missiles can be delivered by SU-27 variants, SU-30s, Tu22M Blackjets, Bears, J6s, JH-7/As, H6-6Hs, J10s, surface ships, diesel submarines or common trucks."

"Adding to the problems facing aircraft carriers are the SHKVAL or "squall" rocket torpedoes installed in some Chinese and Russian submarines and surface ships. At 6,000 lbs a piece, these torpedoes travel at 200 knots (or 230 miles per hour) with a range of 7,500 yards guided by autopilot. They are designed to sink aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines. Again, it is unfortunate for the US and UK to have no known or existing defenses against this new generation of rocket torpedoes."

"China's sea mines/ Complicating matters for the US aircraft carrier battle groups are the hundreds of hard-to-detect, rocket-propelled, bottom-rising sea mines that are anchored and hidden on the sea bottom covering pre-selected battle sites in the East China Sea and the Philippine Sea designed to home in on submarines and surface ships, particularly aircraft carriers."

"Chinese and Russian missiles cocked/ Both Chinese and Russian inter-continental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs), and the two countries' extensive air defense systems have been coordinated and ready to respond in the event that the US and UK decide to retaliate with a nuclear attack."

"In addition, Ranets-E and Rosa-E radio frequency/electromagnetic pulse systems scattered all along China's coastal cities are on the look-out to neutralize incoming missiles and aircraft that may respond after the attack on the aircraft carrier battle groups. These systems can work in tandem with airborne-based anti-missile laser systems now in China's inventory."

"Asymmetric warfare/ If the US pushes through its plan of world domination, then it should expect all the smaller and weaker countries that do not wish to be pushed around to fight back using asymmetric warfare. This is a form of warfare that allows the weak to fight and defeat a much stronger foe by "attacking the enemy's weakness while avoiding his strengths".

Online ASIA TIMES/ Greater China Oct 19, 2006
AMERICA'S ACUPUNTURE POINTS
PART 1: Striking the US where it hurts, By Victor N Corpus
LINK: www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HJ19Ad01.html

Selected quotes:

"A noted Chinese theorist on modern warfare, Chang Mengxiong, compared China's form of fighting to "a Chinese boxer with a keen knowledge of vital body points who can bring an oppoenent to his kness with a minimum of movements". It is like key acupunctuire points in ancient Chinese medicine. If America ever goes to war with China, say, over Taiwan, then America should be prepared for the following "acupuncture points" in its anatomy to be "punctured". Each of the vital points can bring America to its knees with a minimum of effort."

"1 Electro-magnetic Pulse (EMP) attack/ China and Russia are two potential US adversaries that have the capability for this kind of attack. An EMP attack can either come from an intercontinental ballistic misssile (ICBM), a submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM), a long-range cruise missile, or an orbiting satellite armed with a nuclear or non-nuclear EMP warhead. A nuclear burst of one (or more) megaton some 400 kilometers over the central United States (Omaha, Nebraska) can blanket the whole continental US with electro-magnetic pulse in less than one second."

"An EMP attack will damage all electrical grids on the US mainland. It will disable computers and other similar electrical devices with microchips. Most businesses and industries will shut down. Anti-ballistic missile defenses will suffer the same fate. In short - TOTAL BLACKOUT. And American society as we know it will be thrown back into the Dark Ages."

"2 Cyber attack/ America is the most advanced country in the world in the field of information technology (IT). Practially all of its industries, manufacturing, business and finance, telecommunications, key government services and defense establishment rely heavily on computers and computer networks."

"But this heavy dependence on computers is a double-edged sword. It has thrust the US economy and defense establishment ahead of other countries; but it has also created an Achilles' heel that can potentially bring the superpower to its knees wih a few keystrokes on a dozen or so laptops."

"China's new concept of a "people's war" includes IT warriors coming, not only from its military more than 2-million strong, but from the general citizenry of some 1.3 billion people. If we add the hackers and information warriors from Russia, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, Syria and other countries sympathetic to China, the cyber attack on the US would be formidable indeed."

"So, if a major conflict erupts between China and America, more than a few dozen laptops will be engaged to hack America's military establishment; banking system; stiock exchange; defense industries; telecommunication system; power grids; water system; oil and gas pipeline system; air traffic and train traffic control systems; C4ISR system, ballistic missile system, and other systems that prop up the American way of life."

"3 Interdiction of US foreign oil supply/ America is now 75% dependent on foreign imported oil. About 23.5% of America's imported oil supply comes from the Persian Gulf. To cut off this oil supply, Iran can simply mine the Strait of Hormuz, using bottom-rising sea miones. It is worthwhile to note that Iran has the world's fourth-largest inventory of sea mines."

"Combined with sea mines, Iran can also block the narrow strait with supersonic cruise missiles such as Yakhonts, Moskits, Granits and Brahmos deployed on Abu Musa Island and all along the rugged and mountainous coastline of Iran fronting the Persian Gulf."

"... Iran's role will become strategically crucial. Iran can totally stop the flow oil coming from the Persian Gulf. This is also the reason why Iran is so brave in daring the US to attack it on the nuclear proliferation issue. Iran knows that it has then power to hurt the US. Without oil from the Gulf, the war machines of the US and its principal allies will literally run out of gas."

"One wonders: what will be the price of oil if Iran blocks the Strait of Hormuz. It will surely drive oil prices sky high. Prolonged high oil prices, in turn, trigger inflation in the US and a sharp decline of the dollar, possibly even a dollar free-fall. The collapse of the dollar will have a serious impact on the entire US economy."

"4 Attack on the US dollar/ One of the pillars propping up US superpower status and worldwide economic dominance is the dollar being accepted as the predominant reserve currency. Central banks of various countries have to stock up dollar reserves because they can only buy their oil requirements and other major commodities in US dollars."

"The US economic strength, however, is a double-edged sword and can turn out to be America's economic Achilles' heel. A run of the US dollar, for instance, which would cause a dollar free-fall, can bring the entire US economy toppling down."

"What is frightening for the US is the fact that China, Russia and Iran possess the power to cause a run on the US dollar and force its collapse."

"The US-led war in Iraq was a tactical victory for the US initially, but has resulted in strategic defeat overall. The Iraq war caused the US to lose its principal allies in Europe and be isolated, despised and hated in many parts of the world. Without too many friends and allies, the US is likened to be an "emporer with no clothes."

Ready for a war with CHINA? Not me. Let's have a nice day in the neighborhood and can't we all get along? Make LOVE not WAR!

Also check out the following related articles:

China Building Offensive Missile Fleet To Counter U.S. Carrier Battle Group Threat
WorldNetDaily.com
LINK: www.tonyrogers.com/news/chinese_moskit_nukes.htm
"The new missiles are designed specifically to destroy American carriers and Aegis cruisers with a single nuclear blast."

China is Preparing a Pearl Harbor Style Attack
YOWUSA.COM 28-July-02
Marshall Masters
LINK: www.yowusa.com/war/2002/war-2002-07a/3.shtml
"Giving the Kitty Hawk a Nasty Sunburn"
"While the Shkval is deadly below the waterline, above the waterline the new Russian Moskit (SS-N-22 Sunburn) missile is equally deadly."

Even more disturbing:

Nation/Politics
China sub stalked U.S. fleet
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
November 13, 2006
LINK: www.washingtontimes.com/national/20061113-121539-3317r.htm

"A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times has learned. The suprise encounter highlights China's continuing efforts to prepare for a future conflict with the U.S., despite Pentagon efforts to try to boost relations with Beijing's communist-ruled military."

"The submarine encounter with the USS Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships also is an embarrassment to the commander of the U.S. forces in the Pacific, Ad. William J. Fallon, whi is engaged in an ambitious military exchange program with China aimed at improving relations betwen the two nations' militaries."

"According to the defense officials, the Chinese Song-class diesel-powered submarine shadowed the Kitty Hawk undetected and surfaced within five miles of the carrier Oct. 26. The surfaced submarine was spotted by routine surveillance flight by one of the carrier groups' planes."

"According to the officials, the submarine is equipped with Russian-made wake-homing torpedoes and anti-ship cruise missiles."

Luckily, the USS Kitty Hawk DIDN't get a bad SUNBURN (Moskit cruise missile name)!

Do we have any "trump cards" up our sleeves? Reverse-engineered alien/ufo technology? I hope we don't have to find out!

Months ago, I had a dream where a satellite accident blew all of the Earth's computers out. Hopefully, it's not prophetic! EMP weapon satellites exist you know! Plus, nuclear, scaler electromagnetic, laser and particle-beam satellite systems.

Hopefully,
PEACE ON EARTH AND GOODWILL TO MAN.

 

they make the shit we buy

 

Why is it that the situation in the US is developing towards a class system similar to what exists in China today. Why is it that the Middle Class in the US is evaporating. Who even knows who the middle class are anymore. Someone give me the numbers that qualify you currently to be considered middle class in the US.

 

Did you note any evidence of environmental degradation in China ?

 

Piney - You just have to step off the plane to see the obvious air problem they have. Un- and under-regulated factory emissions, coupled with a coal based heating and cook-fire lifestyle makes clear air days the exception. However, we never felt like you do in Los Angeles on a smoggy day where you have trouble breathing and your eyes sting, at least we didn't and I'm pretty sensitive about that, but there was a constant haze in the air. Water pollution is also a big problem. Definitely don't drink the water from the tap. Again, lack of regulating safe-guards have allowed years of unchecked polluting practices to go unabated and unmapped. When we were on the Yangtze River it was dirty, but it never had a bad smell to it like some rivers I've been on (or like some canals in Venice). In the areas we were in the land was well cared for, the farm fields were well tended. There is a tremendous amount of new building going on in the cities and in some areas there is a boom in new housing projects not unlike you see in America. Sad part is that these projects are huge and are being built on the outskirts where the peasant dwellings exist (cheap land). The one outside Xining was a perfect case in point. The ones being sold around Chongqing I can see as a necessity with a population of 35 million. Gotta put the people somewhere! We were just curious as to how the people can afford them (pretty nice set-ups) since the average yearly income is pretty low.

 

Cosmic, that was alot. And Sadly, it's almost all true. But, I take a different route of thinking when it come's to America. America has become soft, realy soft. I mean so soft, that it is almost to late to take America back. In 42' we would have droped a bomb on you if you pulled that shit they pulled on 9/11 and called it a day. Now, well hell let speak for its self. Our media has taken side's with the Enemy, they hate our leader so therefore they will do anything to dispose of him, if it mean's there country.
Which they have done, because of the media's lies and b/s. America is going to pay through blood. Heavily. Political correctness has killed our stance and defense. Our nation was founded under one religion. Christianity. Being the nation, of America, a United America, a Free America, we the people have been given the privelage to have and act in our own religion. But now, America is caught up in the wormholes.
With extremest fighting the American way "We dont want our kid's to recit the pledge, and we dont want the ten commandment's in our courtroom's"
That's funny, if this was America, the real America we would have told you to either "Tough Shit, your here on OUR land. You WILL abide by our rule's" or "Get the **** out"

They have taken America as a fool. They Politicaly played us the American people, and used our own Media against us. They used our government against us, and now they are turning our friend's and family against us.

If you murder someone you murder someone. That's that. You go to prison, you get tried for your crime.

Funny, how the extremest have now politicaly corrected us by saying "Yea, so what I murdered someone. What About my right's too?"
Therefore and argument is braught up, and attention is turned else where.

AMerica Stand up against Terrorism. Stand up for your home and for your freedom, for your Family. Or pretty soon, there wont be anything to stand up for.