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How dangerous is MDMA actually?

This drug in particular seems very hard to get an apt description of, between the dangers of long-term use and moderate use, which I think is foolish, as it is widely used.

That is to say, I see conflicting opinions most of the time. I'm to understand that brain lesions are a myth, but not necessarily the decrease in brain activity?
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It is a drug I would to experience again, but what are the REAL dangers? Links are studies would be appreciated.

 

I will say with regards to brain lesions that I don't know where I got mine from.... I've, in the past, consumed A LOT of MDMA.... but I have also consumed other things. I had an MRI of the brain a couple years back for some suspected neurological problems and they didn't find anything serious. They told me all they found on the scan was some small brain lesions. So, don't know what they were from... whether it was ecstasy or something else.

I don't think mdma is dangerous... or very dangerous at all... if you are getting the pure substance for use of just every now and then. As long as you know how to take care of yourself while on it... you know, drink enough water, but not too much... don't combine it with things like alcohol, etc.

I DO think (firsthand experience as well as talking to plenty of other people) that long term, all the time use, does have it's negative, very bad things. Whether it's just the depletion of serotonin that can last quite a while.... anxiety, depression and panic attack problems in the future as well as other emotional, and mental issues. I know for me all or most of those things did go away but it took, literally quite a few years.

Basically I would not suggest anyone roll as often as I did in the past (11-16 years ago) but I also would not ever tell someone if they know what to do and it's a pure substance, they know what they're taking, that it is very dangerous to use in moderation.

 

Very great post terrorist,

About how much were you rolling in the past? like daily use/weekly?

I know some people who would have like binge weeks of just constant redosing, I bet the come-down from that sucked!

 

Thanks.

Well, it varied some. From 1999 to 2001 or 2002 I rolled at LEAST every other week but usually it was at least once a week. Some weeks it was 2 times a week and there was a couple month time period where I would dose 3-4 times a week. At the end of that time period (the two months or so) where we were eating pills all the time... it reached a point where one time I took about 4 pills and didn't roll... got some mdma feelings but it wasn't a roll and it was super sad actually... I ended up being an emotional wreck and was crying and just felt everything was disturbing and gross and disgusting. I think my serotonin levels were just SERIOUSLY depleted at that point.
From there, I never rolled that often.... but for about a year after that I rolled every week or two...sometimes still twice a week.

Starting in 2002 I started rolling a lot less but til 2004 I still rolled sometimes every week and sometimes once a month.

In 2004 I took a break for a year or so where I had panic attacks all the time and my emotions were just not right. It's hard to explain but I remember being in a drive thru line with my husband and just...for almost no reason turning into a total bitch and being really upset over almost nothing and I felt totally out of control.

It took me a couple years to not have problems with my emotions and a couple more years to not have problems with depression.
Since then I have rolled occasionally. Usually I roll now anywhere between every 2 years and every 4 years. And just once. So once and then wait 2-4 years. I don't ever feel depressed or out of control w emotions anymore and very little anxiety.

And yes, the comedowns, when I was rolling all the time got to be really bad. Even now, every time I roll now it takes a couple DAYS to recover... just no energy and sad and stuff. The comedown is one reason I don't roll much anymore and the other reason is I feel I have used up how much mdma a person can handle in their life with the exception of every few years.

 

That is probably one of the most famous anti-MDMA pictures. But this is a brain after meth use, the scientist admitted it later. Here is a link to a more recent study.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/20/ecstacy-doesnt-damage-the_n_825704.html

Although as the above pic shows meth is a danger and that is a common cut into pills and perhaps even molly now. Meth is cheaper and easier to make and can sort of mimic MDMA. Both are amphetamines which is a fact that many people will use to say that they are similar and the damage caused by the two must be too. But MDMA seems to be a rare exception in the amphetamine family as far as damage. But as any MDMA user will tell you getting the pure stuff is hard so there is almost always a risk added by other drugs.

I think the problem is that with overuse of the drug your serotonin receptors shut off from over stimulation. So it can lead to depression and anixity. But as far as actual "damage" to the brain well it depends on what you want to define that as. With time those receptors can come back to an extent but with the sort of use like AmericanTerrorist was describing it may be possible they are never 100% what they were before. But the brain dies off anyway as you age. Even if you never do drugs. And the body has an amazing way of healing itself. Using MDMA a few times a year is safe in my opinion. Just give your brain time to heal and don't hit it with rolling so often it shuts down areas to compensate.

 

Yea, actually I still do feel that I am not 100% back to pre-rolling all the time... but I can say with A LOT of time... I'm talking 7-8 years time, I feel most of the serotonin/depression/anxiety/emotional issues are back to almost-normal. I also give credit to that for me to use food as medicine (nutrient-dense whole-foods) and supplements.

Unfocused...a long time back there was a special on where they scanned this girls brain who said she rolled all the time (which I think she did) and they showed her brain looking like that I think... is that picture from that? I don't remember which show it was but it was on the major networks.... anyways, I do think w that I later heard that that girl also did a lot of meth. Maybe that is just a similar pic but with the show I'm referring to it showed lots of holes in the girl's brain.

 

This girl maybe? They do a brain scan in the clip.
I just remember seeing that pic in my drug education class. I don't know where it originated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHNJwr39HN8"]MTV: True Life "I'm on Ecstasy" - YouTube

 

Many of the dangers of MDMA are exaggerated and propaganized, at least compared to most other recreational drugs, however at the same time it is not a benign drug.

MDMA affects people differently and some people are more sensitive to it so that may partly explain why you are getting conflicting opinions on it, but some probably just hear a few key words on it's pharmacology (way it effects the brain) and try to form a perhaps less than sound basis on it's mechanisms of action.

I will say that most MDMA users are poly drug users, meaning that they use other drugs besides MDMA as well. This kind of makes it difficult to judge the dangers of MDMA itself based solely on street use. A few reasons I figure most MDMA users are poly drug users are that it makes many feel disinhibited so they'd be less likely to turn down another drug if offered, drugs are usually quite abundant in the rave and festival culture where many explore MDMA and MDMA has a pronounced comedown for most, which makes some try to mask or stave off with other drugs or redosing MDMA.

I am more of a tempered user of MDMA compared to AmericanTerrorist, I have been using MDMA for nearly a decade and perhaps only a couple times within that span have I dosed more frequently than once a month. I almost always take one dose of MDMA and I actually don't mind the comedown, I feel there can often be much personal insight going from this extreme optimism to subdued view, I feel it's not too dissimilar to what I experience with other psychedelics just that with the Traditional Psychedelics the view happens to shift throughout the experience as where MDMA is more of a steady Rise and Decline in the emotional component. The days following the experience are often the part I don't really enjoy, I sometimes feel physically exhausted and kind of either apathetic towards things or not very in control of my emotions. So with that in mind as far as some of the commonly reported negatives go I'll speak on them...

Memory impairment: Personally I feel something like pot causes worse memory impairment than MDMA, but if you are used to pot and use both drugs, MDMA will likely exacerbate the memory impairment to a level you probably never experienced on Pot alone or even in combo with other drugs. Again as a poly drug user, difficult to discern what drugs have done what but it's possible MDMA may has a slight effect on my memory, particularly short term but I do feel I still retain a lot and am at least somewhat intelligent.

Depression: I kind of touched on this earlier but I'll get more into it... This is definitely a side effect that is present for many and not something to be taken lightly, however sometimes MDMA can cause an afterglow as well where you appreciate things more and have a zest for life following the experience. It's really difficult to describe but it's more nuanced ime than simply getting depressed for a few days after every time you take the drug. I do feel that MDMA perhaps may kind of have flattened emotional affect for me as well, so I don't necessarily express my emotions the best, although it's been suggested I didn't really do that all that well before MDMA either...

Anxiety: With long term and/or habitual (ab)use, it's possible that you may start experiencing heightened anxiety during and after use. Again this is one of those things that may be difficult to discern if you are a poly drug user but given MDMA has components of both psychedelics and stimulants, it can likely follow suite in some of the repercussions of both those classes of drugs when abused. Also there is a phenomena with MDMA called 'diminishing returns' which some people experience, where they feel the affects of the drug less and less over time, after X amount of uses.

Dehydration: You need to stay hydrated when you take MDMA, in particular if you are to go to a show or rave where you will be dancing. MDMA makes many disinhibited and you can kind of be so entranced with the music, sights and new sensations of your body and mind that you may kind of forget about the physical effects. There have been some incidents where some drink too much water and overcompensate with the water which is actually quite dangerous as well. Sports drinks like gatorade are preferable over water but about 2-3 waters over the course of the experience is good.

Now something to take into account as I touched on in this last paragraph is that the culture which surrounds MDMA, primarily that of Raves and festivals can often exacerbate some of these negative effects. When you are up all night on MDMA, dancing, often you can feel physically exhausted just as much if not more from the dancing as the drug itself, so take that into account. Some of the raves and events I have been to have been some of the most transformative experiences I have ever had on drugs, yet if it becomes a lifestyle it can take it's toll on you as well.


As far as the pharmacology (effects on the brain) goes...The most acute effect of MDMA particularly with the questions you are inquiring about is that it releases and depletes serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is involved primarily with regulating mood. The depleted serotonin is mostly what can make you feel depressed however Down regulation of serotonin may explain some of this As well, particularly in frequent use, . Serotonin has a such a disproportianate release compared to other monoamines with MDMA that in some ways I find this actually a blessing in disguise because this means that for many including myself, MDMA is generally not going to be as addictive as other stimulants like Cocaine or Meth. However some people do have a 'honeymoon' period with MDMA where they use it fairly frequently. I'm not going to link an abstract or anything but I will link a more detailed explanation...

http://www.dancesafe.org/drug-information/ecstasy-slideshow/

 

Oh yah btw, I had an fMRI too after using MDMA for about 5 years as well as many other Psychedelics and there were no signs of brain damage.

 

What do you think my brain lesions could have been from?

I mean, granted, they weren't holes.(least I don't think a lesion is a hole-I picture a lesion more like a "small cut")- The doc just said "a few small lesions"... he didn't act like it was anything to be overly concerned about either. At the time of my brain scan I had used MDMA a lot.... a bunch of alcohol at times... opiates a few times ...well, maybe more than a few but not a lot at that point... meth, only tried like twice-doubt it would be that... coke-- really doubt it-maybe 7-8 times but I mean I had done a lot of other random stuff, k, nitrious, I don't really know... but I do wonder what could have caused them. Can drinking a lot do that?

 

Yes more then any of the other drugs you mentioned. People underestimate the damage from alcohol because it is legal. It's a poison.

 

Okay... yea, that's probably what it was then because my neurological things that prompted the mri started after a period where I was drinking a lot-blackouts and stuff.
I don't drink anymore (obviously now because I'm pregnant) but even before then I've drank maybe twice in the two years before because I really started not liking it, thinking it was pointless and caused more problems then it was worth.
I don't think it could have been coke or meth, having only done them a few times. Less than 10 total for both.. and mostly coke...
and opiates, although they have their downfalls, I'm fairly certain that is not one of them. They really don't cause permanent or even temp brain damage.


Anyways, yea, back to the point of the thread... I wasn't trying to imply that the lesions were caused by mdma, just that I didn't know (and still really don't know for sure), what did cause them. I AM certain that the emotional... depression...anxiety... issues I had for years WAS because of rolling. However, I did not do it the right way obviously. After my first couple years rolling I always made sure to tell people NOT to do it the way I did it. And to keep it to one or maybe twice a month at most. If for no other reason than for tolerance issues.

 

You used MDMA much more frequently then I have so I wouldn't totally discount weekly MDMA use being causal. There is evidence with rats that alcohol combined with MDMA is more neurotoxic than MDMA on its own, that doesn't guarantee that translates to use in humans but I'd be willing to bet it does to some extent.

Ketamine and disasssociatives have been linked with Olney's lesions in rats but again that doesn't necessarily translate to humans. I think Nitrous oxide can be hard on the brain as well and effects some parts of the brain similar to ketamine.

As well as among those other drugs used, I'm not sure what may have caused it.

 

Hm, well there we go then. It could be the combination of the two or frequency combined with alcohol (not that I consumed both at the same time, but sometimes in the same week if that counts.)--- in any case, I'd say the safe thing is just (obviously!) not to roll as often as I did. You never really know what anything will do when you over-do it and take it to an extreme.

 

I think nitrous is pretty bad on the brain

 

Because of the lack of oxygen yes it is. It also causes neuropathy in your body. The problem is people do it over and over. They call it hippie crack for a reason. I have seen people blow allot of money hovering over a tank like a fiend. So they end up not getting much oxygen for a long time.

 

i think a brain "lesion" can be something on the MRI that they can't quite make out. it could be a shadow, or a blip in the scan. don't quote me on this though..

my wife has a brain lesion. the neurologist said that she could have hit her head as a child or something like that.

 

This video is more on medicinal use of MDMA which doesn't necessarily apply to recreational use but it may provide some insight to some of the benefits MDMA can have when used responsibly. One thing I'll note, Rick Doblin the founder of MAPS, one of the current leading organizations on Scientific studies of psychedelics has self admittedly used MDMA around a 100 times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2RqLjFhks0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2RqLjFhks0

 

My 2 cents.....

Most of the danger might come from not knowing who is actually making the MDMA and under what conditions. In other words there's no quality control. Also, there is no set dosage so its all about experimenting which can be risky.

 

I'm new to this site so I'm not even sure if I'm replying on what I'm supposed to be right now. Lol but talking about the dangers of MDMA, I personally think the worst part is the depression. I've only been doing M for half a year now, and after the first time I can honestly say I was hooked. I tried M for the first time telling myself I'd only do it once, and didn't listen to my friends when they told me how addictive it was considering I'm usually not easily addicted to things. The first time I tried it I did one capsule, the second time I did 3. The come down the next morning is unbearable for me. Not only do you physically feel like shit, you feel depressed because you don't feel as amazing as you did the night before. I've never had problems with depression before MDMA but now I need to take depression pills daily, not to mention I still do MDMA more than once a week. If I could go back I wouldn't even have tried it. As of now, I'm doing 6 capsules at one time with no hesitation. My tolerance has gone up so much I honestly think 6 capsules isn't enough but I've limited myself. Been in rehab twice, really I don't plan on quitting M anytime soon considering now it's just a part of my lifestyle. But when I don't have it for longer than 3 days, I feel so mentally messed up I can't handle myself. To sum it up, if you feel yourself craving M more than you expected, tone it down because the withdrawals aren't worth it mentally. Xoxo