Yes, They Still Exist.

A girl I know through a friend asked me out for coffee yesterday, and since I was bored I accepted. I have known since I met her that she is a very conservative-leaning, anti-hippie, liberal-bashing traditionalist, but generally we get along anyway because I am so easygoing. However, we had quite the interesting conversation that still leaves me incredulous.

We exchanged pleasantries, the usual how-have-you-been deal, and then got down to talking. She made a remark about her mother's recently-dissolved relationship, and we shared a comment -- "I will never understand men."
This segued into a discussion about her semi-relationship, and how her singleness is a point of frustration. She asked if I was still "with that loser", to which I replied, "As much and as little as ever."

Then this girl proceeded to tell me to dump my poet friend -- because a poet could never hold his own end in a marriage!

I sort of laughed, and said it was a good thing I didn't want to marry my poet anyway.

She proceeded to ask how old I was, and then said I was "getting to the age" that I "should start thinking about that sort of thing."

I replied that I never wanted to get married, and if I ever did I wanted to marry someone I loved.

She sort of smiled and said that I could love "a nice law student or pre-med major just as easily" as I could love my poet.

I argued that the law students and pre-med majors I had met were rather boring, and that some of them perpetuated a system that placed females in the role of possession rather than person.

She became exasperated and said I was stereotyping. I replied that she was too, and we called a truce.

Looking back, I am rather indignant, but mostly bemused. I didn't know that there still existed women who came to college for an M.R.S. degree and followed the rather outdated system of marrying for security rather than love.

True, if my poet and I were to ever pursue a relationship of any length, we'd probably live out of his tent or my car ... but we would love each other, and I tend to think that trumps a rather stagnant and non-loving comfortable life as Mrs. Doctor/Lawyer.

Comments and opinions welcome! But please ignore my hot feminist blood -- I am not anti-men, anti-conservative, anti-marriage, anti-doctor/lawyer, or in fact anti-anything ... except probably anti-closemindedness.

 

I'm anti-conservative, anti-marrage, and anti-rich people. I know these people still exist because I see my parents everyday, and they're not very happy. I like to flout my liberalness in front of these kind of people for a good laugh, and I'm not even very liberal politically.

 

love can slowly dissolve when you are fighting all the time about money and/or never have any money to enjoy yourselves with as you are always struggling to pay the next overdue bill. my parents were young and "so in love" but were not rich by any means. they've just recently gotten to a place where they are well off financially but have pretty much spent the last 25 years stressed out and having arguements because of their money problems. my mother is trying to get me to go to a family function this summer where my havard grad cousin will be with alot of his single friends........you can guess the reason she wants me to go. she says "you can love a harvard graduate as much as you can any of your hippie boys". she may or may not be right. i have never had the desire to marry for money (or to marry for that matter) but rather to make enough money to support myself and myself only. i wont support a man financially and i dont want to be supported financially. im finding it harder then i imagined it would be but my goal lies within myself and within my own means anyway.


for the record i AM going to join her for this family affair

 

Good point Elle - financial strain can put a lot of relationships to the test. I know in my own personal experience, my love and I are the exact opposite of many couples we know. We can live out of a van, have virtually nothing to our names, be completely and totally "down and out" by most peoples definitions, and spend 24/7 with one another. We never get tired of seeing or talking to each other, and we almost never argue. BUT, when we're in a rent-paying situation and one or both of us are working, spending time apart, all just for a make-money-to-pay-the-bills cycle... we get stressed and argue. That's what it's been like a lot lately, since we've been rent-paying in TN... I'm almost sad that we're settling in and getting used to it (being apart I mean) and it's become LESS of an issue. But in the years we've been together, we've done this all before and I never get tired of seeing his face!

I've heard people, mostly women, mostly olderish, conservative women making comments about "husband hunting" and such. I think any such thing is completely irresposible. Even IF you somehow end up with a good man in that situation, and you end up falling in love, what happens in the event of the unforseeable? I think EVERYONE should be able to support him/her self and pull their own weight through life.

 

This is random, but your vocabulary is hot. And yes, I'm being serious, not sarcastic.

Anyway... Yeah, I call women like these "Pro-Stepford Wives"... I won't lie, they drive me nuts.

Sometimes I think that women are that way, simply because they are afraid they will have to live up to something out of their skill level, or intelligence... and no one likes to feel belittled. [I hope that makes sense]

And some are just raised that way, and never learn to think for themselves, but rather stick to what their parents brought them up to believe.

I get annoyed with personalities like those... Traditionalists bother me, only because they never seem to consider the reason behind the tradition...rather, they stick with it because they're taught to. Although I'm not sure if they realize that if things always stayed the same that way, and never changed, we would be in a great deal of danger...more so than we already are.

Progression is a good thing... and sometimes I think people underestimate the reality of the way things could be, or WERE before their time. Some women may think they support this type of role and ideal, but if they were forced into those roles... would they really be that way? I dont think half of them would be.

 

I agree I could never think marraige with somone who made less money than me and unfortunatley that rules out most guys my age ): It's just odd I mean like not even thinking of the potential fights or power struggles but like simplier things like on dates who picks up the check ect it would just make things really complicated adn I like things very simple and defined.

 

Love counts as a material possesion, because it is. The more you love someone, the richer they are.

 

It sounds like Suncatch's friend has marriage as a goal. She seems to be persuing that goal as ardently as any pre-Med persues Med. School admission. It also seems that she thinks that others should have the same kind of goals that she has.

I don't see her ardent persuit of marriage as nessesarily anti-feminist. Her life, her choice.

Her assumption that Suncatch22 should follow the same marriage path is what feminism fights against. Forcing women into any role is anti-feminist.

 

Open mindedly think about this my good lady friend, premeds are not bad and everyone is able to put some one in the role of "possession" , the guy you might have met happens to be a premed, thats about it.
Secondly, she sounds mature enough to understand that poems actually do not bring the bread home, and probably you will think the same thing when you grow up a little. Love is important but just love does not cut it, money is important enough to get a divorce from some one you love. that does not mean that women need to marry for security , but really if you marry some one rich and love, you can focus on your love more than your finances. Think positively Miss Feminist minded Catch 22, there is some truth in everything.

 

This is an awesome conversation! Keep it up!

Thank you, Apples and Oranjes, all around! Many traditionalists make me crazy too, because they don't really think about the traditions -- merely follow them blindly.

And yes -- haven't we as feminists fought against the very thing they support?! Wasn't that what the Women's Liberation was about ... ?

I do see the point about money woes breaking a relationship apart ... HOWEVER.
I have dated several boys who made more money than I (go figure ... I'm an artist ... and literally penniless almost all the time ) ... and I always felt very very awkward. It makes me uncomfortable when I cannot pay my half of the check, or when I have to sneak groceries out of a store (ahem). So my goal is to support myself, and IF I ever find a long-termish relationship, to have finances independent from the other party. Therefore, I would almost prefer to date someone at my own financial level anyway.

Sorry, doctors and lawyers ... you're out of luck. Unless you happen to be laid-back hippie dudes, whereupon you may feel free to hang out with the rest of us.

 

Good luck with such an impractical approach to life : " So my goal is to support myself, and IF I ever find a long-termish relationship, to have finances independent from the other party". That is not possible to have, but you are welcome to try and fail, or succeed with incredible will and a little stroke of luck. Good luck!

 

Maybe I wasn't clear, what I meant in the above post was, it is nearly impossible to keep your finances independent of your "long term" relationship like marriage, where almost everything is shared.

 

I dated a guy who had a lot of money. When we started dating he was just a regular guy making regular money, but by the 6 month point he was making a ton of money and wearing fancy clothes while I continued to dress in my usual thift shop fare.

Money became a major issue.... he took over my rent... he vollenteered to pay for me to go back and get another degree. He wanted to buy me a new car (even though my Geo runs wonderfully). He would send me $100 bouquets of flowers at work. He bought a top of the line BMW.

I couldn't deal with it! I looked at the money he was throwing around, trying to impress me and others with this "things" that ment nothing! Meanwhile, I was still sending money every month to these poor kids in know in the Philippines!

He asked me to marry him... proposed with a 4 carat diamond ring. It was then that I realized that he didn't love me, as I was... he loved the me he thought I could be with a little "polishing up". Why would you buy an artist, who has her hands in plaster and paint for hours a day a 4 carat ring???? I would ruin it in a week!

I broke everything off... and am now married to a man who proposed with an onion ring.

 

Yes I know he must have hated you, he was not thinking of you at all when he was sending you those flowers or bought you that 4 carat diamond ring.

But seriously, the thought counts, I guess you didn't notice that he was trying to get you to like him and love him. It is a scientific fact that women look for people with whom they are more secure, heh maybe there is a minority of artistic women who hate money and want to stay poor so that they can steal from the nearby grocery store, I guess that makes sense in some other way.

 

While this may be true to some respect, I think it needs to be emphasized that we're not just talking about financial and material security. I'm "married" to a man who I'm very in love and happy with. Even in stressful times we are still very much in love and happy, even when we don't know where we'll be sleeping tonight or where our next meal's coming from. But we both know that we're partners in this world, and we've got eachothers backs.
It's not all about money, for all of us Jedi.

 

But a long lasting relationship is partly about money. And BEFORE marriage is the best time to think about one's potential spouse and the financial implications of that choice.

 

that's what that little blue box and bag they give is for sweetie so you don't ruin it. Don't knock a man for wanting to financialy take care of you unless he says degrading things/has expectations in the process.
I admire your knew found love I just know in all honesty and to god I wish I was different that I couldn't be with a guy who didn't have the possibility of giving me financial security int he future. My friends think I am horrible for this we will go out to a bar and I seriously won't even talk to guys my own age because it's like what do they have to offer me? I don't need a guy who is loaded but I want certain things in life when I am older and I think it is smart to recognize that and that there's nothing wrong for only going for guys with ambition. Is that wrong?

 

exactly, perfectly put

 

what the hell is your issue, man?

believe it or not, people can be happy without fucking money.

money is manmade and to me, matters very very little. As long as I have people I love around me, I will be happy....for richer or for poorer.

I don't know why this is so WRONG to some people, or so impossible... I rather think this is a good quality...but whatever. You can go find yourself a gold digger or something to the affect, and be miserable in a marriage of lies, rather than happiness and love.

 

Dude... and, you guys can say it's unrealistic or whatever, but to me it's much more unrealistic to choose someone because the situation is comfortable. Money does not, and will not EVER outlast love...and if you love someone because it's easy to, or whatever, then chances are that isn't love.

Love takes work, and isn't perfect, and if you guys are looking for a perfect life, then you're probably in for a long ride.

God, I can't even believe the way some of you are talking. I would have thought coming into a forum where most of you consider yourselves to be laid back, make love not war kinds of people that you would rely more on love and happiness than money and success.

Honestly..... there are more fucking important things in life than MONEY.