10,000 Clergy members endorse evolution

Is it considered 'Ironic' when you ask yourself a question and then give yourself the answer to the wrong question?

Here is what you asked:
If god supposedly made only one man and one woman, how could the human race vary so much without evolution?

Your answer is 'Evolution'?
Ok then.

Lets get back to your hypothetical question.
IF God make one man and one woman - how could there be so much variation.
It practically answers itself.
Its called descent and variation.

So please tell me where exactly you are having a confusion about this?
If you have (or ever saw) siblings you probably noticed they often have variations.
One may be dark haired and tall.. another shorter and lighter.

Is that what you think Evolution is?

 

The idea that man came into existance from simple life forms and evolved over many years to the more complex life we see today is the basic concept of evolution. If I did not believe the literal Bible account I could see how some could buy into this theory. Yet my understanding of the Bible and its literal fulfillments has given me the confidence to understand, that science is not the last word in truth. Now that many of the Bible accounts from Mount Sinia, to the Red Sea crossing site have been discovered, and with the remnants of Pharoahs army found coral incrusted. I have even more confidence, that the Bible was written literally. I donot believe the Creation story was written as a fairy tale, but is the actual and truthful account given to us by God. I also believe this literal account and the Theory of Evolution are incompatible. To further understand my confidence in the Bible, I cannot ignore the prophecies which speak of world conditions in the last days. The Bible states that shortly before the return of Christ, we will see the Jews returning to Israel, and retaking Jerusalem. The Bible claims that future Israel will be surrounded by enemies, and Jerusalms East Gate will be sealed until the Prince to come, arrives on the last day. The Bible also speaks about America, and in no less than three chapters. Scripture speaks of America's future destruction by northern nations. It points out, that American cities will burn, and her end will come in one hours time. Even as I type this, our enemies are working towards this goal.

 

All I need to know to realise its pseudoscience - and then a lot more after that.
Seriously, I took it in school like everyone else and later began to study it at home.

The problem here is that there is no such set forward and established 'thing' as a Theory of Evolution.
Yesterdays 'Evolutionism' is not todays 'Evolutionism' and it makes it difficult to say:
"What do you know"
This decade has returned to the 'Hopeful Monster' in Puncuated Equilibrium 'Punk Eek' but who knows because as soon as thats discredited then it might be a 'new old' thing.

Sometimes things are just 'made up' and then next week are gone again.
Like I said, thats why its hard to say 'how much' when you talk Evolutionism.

Same problem again.
Evolutionists have 'taught' many different things, some abandoned, some returned again in a new form.
There are different 'camps' and there again is no actual established 'real thing' so it can 'teach' all over the place.

I usually try and keep on top of what the current and most popular claims are coming from the more important Evolutionists out there.

Yes I do.
Are you asking me to explain it to you?
It almost self-explanatory anyways.
Its where traits are selected.

Im sure that Science and Reason reject what is actually taught in Evolutionism.

Yes, I will just sit here and create an entire compendium of the whole Evo-Cre debate, and then explain myself to you.

Well I think its less than honest for you to sit back and ask for a list of evolutionary theories and then my rebuttal to all of them.
Wow.
Id like you to go and prepare that for me.
Then I can just sit back and thumb through it.. hmmm... then just ask more question on top of more questions.

Do you want me to explain why the 'Mutation + Selection' concept is practically impossible?
I mean, Id rather you did it for me to be honest here.

Can you at least answer your own questions in the form of a reply and contribution?

 

why at the end of every post you type, do you just re-write or copy paste, these prophecies. you know why, you are using fear, not love. you are trying to scare people, yes thats what Jesus preached about love. look at yourself before others.

about the setting of the red sea, you may have read some evidence, but i watched a program a few weeks ago on Discovery which was showing how historicially the plagues of Egypt happnened naturally (set up bu God before creation) through a HUGE volcano, and it also proved that the translations of the red sea was an error, and that it actually was meant to be the REED sea which made a lot more sense. many biblical schlorors in Israel showed the presenters of the show how the error had happened.

i do not believe in the literal creation, mainly because any basic knowledge of this planet says otherwise. just a simple fact like why the sea is salted and the rivers are not, shows the time scale. little bits of evidence as such shows me not to take it literally.
peacex

 

Well of course that IS the debate is it not?
I believe in a Literal Genesis because not only does it claim to be but I would tell you that even a basic knowledge of the planet shows me so.
Just simple facts like the Human Population show me the time scale.

Basically you just insist that your basic knowledge is understood correctly and more reliable.
Ok.
But that IS the debate.
You dont establish it by just insisting "I believe I have the evidence right because I believe my evidence is right, so therefore I have the right evidence and have it right"

Anyways... I have to say that its true Jesus did come as a Lamb and that is no question.
However.
Its pretty clear that Jesus that Lamb promised to return as a Conquering King who will actually bring a big huge can of Whoopass.
So, both things are true.

 

please don't accuse me of thinkgs you have been doing also, yes it is the debate, and it is a lot about what you believe, and whose evidence you trust.
you see i see Jesus as different to you, i see him as showing us how to reach God throught love and peace, not through arragance and elitism.

the literal sense of genesis, its the debate of time scale to me. it also says that a second to God is like a thousand years (?), so literally could we not relate this back.
peaceingodx

 

The only thing that really changes with the Theory of Evolution, is the Theory itself. And these changes can be observed from one generation to the next.

 

Yes, I have watched such programs such as Discovery as well. They try to humanize and explain away the mircles of the Bible. You say I use fear, I say I'm not color coating the Scriptures. I'm telling you what's plainly stated, and not what people want to hear. I have heard them insert the word Reed sea, which is ridiculous, because the same word is used in the Old Testament which describes where Solomon built his navy. Do you really believe he built his navy in a marsh, so his men could pull his ships through the mud of a shallow lake. I don't think so. And the biblical scholars they present, often come from the most liberal side of the spectrum, and usually they are the same one's trying to descredit the authority of the Scriptures. The location of the crossing was marked by Solomons workmen, for where the divers have found Pharaoh's submerged and coral incrusted army, they have also located two ancient 18 foot granit columns on opposing beaches with these words chisled in stone. Egypt, death, Pharaoh, Moses, Yahweh. In the same area they have found ancient Sinaitic Inscriptions chisled in stone, which gives extra Biblical evidence of what happened there.
"The Hebrews flee through the sea; the sea is turned into dry land."
"The waters permitted and dismissed to flow, burst rushing unawares upon the astonished men, congregated from quarters banded together to slay treacherously being lifted up with pride.''
The leader divideth asunder the sea, its waves roaring. The people enter, and pass through the midst of the waters.''
Moses causeth the people to haste like a fleet-winged she-ostrich crying aloud; the cloud shining bright, a mighty army propelled into the Red sea is gathered into one; they go jumping and skipping. Journeying and skipping. Journeying through the open channel, taking flight from the face of the enemy. The surge of the sea is divided.'' The people flee, the tribes descend into the deep. The people enter and penetrate through the midst. The people are filled with stupor and perturbation. Jehovah is the keeper and companion.'' "Their enemies weep for the dead, the virgins are wailing. The sea flowing down overwhelmed them. The waters were let loose to flow again.'' The people depart fugitive. A might army is submerged in the deep sea, the only way of escape for the congregated people.''


Inscriptions END

I bet they never mentioned these inscriptions on Discovery, did they.

http://www.bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/redsea.html

 

Science is a self-correcting field. The more you study something, the better you know it (duh). That's how it works. Lamarck said that evolution could give children traits of their parents such that a blacksmith who was big and muscular would have muscular babies. Obviously that was not accepted. Scientists toil all over the world for their entire lives trying to prove things wrong. It's called a null hypothesis, and it goes against what's established. If you can support the null hypothesis, your study will fly in the face of established science. That's pretty rare, though, except with new theories.

That said, it seems to me that you, Campbell, refuse to understand evolution. You don't know the whole picture and use that half-assed excuse of understanding to reaffirm your faith. Erasmus, I don't know as much about you. You seem to have a similar understanding, and you refrained from going into any detail. And I'm kinda surprised that you've got beef with natural selection. Overall, if you know the theory of evolution, it works much better than whatever mythologies you want to throw at it.

 

I don't refuse to understand Evolution, I simply know based on the stronger evidence laid out in the Bible, that Evolution, and the progression of the species is not compatible with Scripture. The literal Bible is being verified from recent discoveries, which I find far more convincing than anything believers in Evolution have presented. Also, the prophecies found in the Bible, are to obvious to ignore. The future of our world is recorded in the Scriptures. America, Israel, the rise of the Islamics nations, Russia, China, and Europes involvement, are clearly stated. We are living in the day, when the God of the Bible, is going to be revealed to this world. Iran is now going to start working on Nukes. Do you really believe we are going to be living in a time of peace, harmony, and understanding. Soon, other nations will follow. And this is the reason the Bible said, "that in the last days, perlious times shall come." The Bible knew what was coming, it tells us, that at the time of the end, nations would have the ability, to destroy other nations in one hours time. And the Bible clearly tells us, that people would turn from the doctrine of truth, and would embrace fables. I believe Evolution, is just one of those fables, which is masquerading as science. And this is another reason in the New Testament it states, ''beware of science, falsely so called.''

 

Creationism, thanks to ID, is now science, falsely called. There's nothing unscientific about evolution. And perilous times is just about any time. Countries around the world have had nukes since the 50's and 60's. There have been lunatics on street corners saying that the end of the world is about to arrive for even longer.

 

I think evolutionism and creationism are one...

Quantum mechanics PROVES beyond any shadow of a doubt that is all one consciousness, thus the mysticism within all religions and all the sciences come together as one. (both Self Aware Universe and Physics of the Soul by Amit Goswami should be taught in school) The fact that all these amazing coicidences in the formation of the universe also proves that an intelligence is involved in the process of the universe which the ID people often use to support thier theory which is different then the one presented by Goswami. It involved a seperate creator, dualism... These LIES and EVILS dualism and seperteness will fall apart, the same as the evils of materialism... as mystical knowledge and truth become the normal understanding of HOW IT IS!

The theory of evolution as taught by Darwin, must then be modified in terms of the SUPREME TRUTH of the one consciousness.

Taught as it is in schools is an insult to the truth and insult to WHO I AM. and the workings of maya.


As far as the story of genesis, it is obviously to me a symbolic story used for teaching, it is a creation myth, borrowed from other cultures that used a simular story, and thrown in the bible.

People that take it literal, hmmm come on. That is sooo horribly beautiful, doesn't it make your chuckle. It's just anther one of God's punchlines. I can't even begin to concieve of the thought process that lead to that conclusion.

These people just aren't ready for the truth, so they cling to one book and take it literal... A MENU AT DENNY'S RESTERAUNT is just as HOLY as the HOLY BIBLE... ALL IS HOLY... ALL IS MANIFESTATION OF THE ONE CONSCIOUSNESS... I said that to a liberal fundemenatlist friend of mine, and he shivered a little... he's obviously not ready.

 

In the Bible the Great and perilous times begin at the time the Jews return to Israel from a world wide despersion and retake Jerusalem by force. The Bible tells us, that Jerusalem will become a cup of trembling, and all of the world's attention will finally be focused on the fate of Jerusalem. The Bible is far more detailed, than those who believe it could be anytime. Since the 50s and 60s, only a limited number of countries had Nukes, and they were countries with a western mind set. We will now be dealing with countries that believe it is an honor to strap on a bomb, and kill as many Americans and Jews as possible. In the future, the nations that will control these weapons, truly will believe America is the Great Satan. Yes, there have been lunatics saying the end is near. Yet, few of them could give you an informative or Biblical reason why.
Nothing unscientific about Evolution? Outside of the fact that many that support it, bar any other theories from being considered, and punish those who would suggest otherwise. They accomplish this, by holding back grant money, or by threatening teachers with job loss who don't support the party line. Yea, thats real science. Evolution cannot stand on it's own merits, and even when most Americans believing that ID should be taught aloneside Evolution. Only through legal manuvers in the courts, could the Evolutionist win. So much for the will of the people, so much for free thought and expression. Evolutions greatest ally, is not the fossil record, it is not science, it's best defense, is censorship of all other theories.

 

Ok, I'll give you that by this interpretation you can consider Genisis doctrine.

But the more important point is this;

Jesus never once told his followers , "read the torah" or "convince people of the literal accuracy of the creation story" or "teach them about Jewish history" or anything like that.

What he told them to do was "Love god, Love your nieghbor, and preach the good news of the remission of sins".

That was the only mission he gave them.

There were a thousand theories about the creation of the world floating around at the time of Jesus' ministry.

He never once said "go out and prove that they're all wrong and the Torah is right".

I think, personally, if you're making the acceptance of the literal historocity of Genisis a prerequisite for accepting christianity you're putting provisions on it that Jesus himself never did.

Wow. If you're going to give this sermon (or some version of) at the end of every post why not make it your sig?

 

He most definately read the Torah and constantly quoted from it during his Ministry.
Jesus refers to Genesis as a literal account and dont forget his Geneology goes straight back through it to Adam.
He refers to events in Genesis as literal events (ie The Flood, The Whale).
He probably doesnt need to tell anyone to learn about Jewish History since almost everyone, including him did learn about these things.
He repeatedly references Jewish History thoughout his Ministry.

In a lot of ways I strongly agree with what you said here.

Personally, In an age of Scientific Enlightenment when we have unprecedented knowledge about Natural Selection, DNA, Mutations, the Fossil Record etc.... I cannot imagine how someone can still be an evolutionist.
But
Not just many but most Christians really dont care to be that interested and in a way they have the right idea anyways.
You certainly 'Can' believe Evolution brought us here and still continue on as Christian or a Jew just fine.
To put it this way - How we got to Adam is in a very real sense 'not important' but what is Humanity doing now that its here - thats the real question for us.

Just a case in point - CS Lewis was raised and steeped in Evolutionist thinking before he became a Christian.
(To my knowledge) that remained his understanding of how we came to be.
It doesnt stop him from experiencing anything to the fullest.
He doesnt really need to know if Adam came about in one week or in billions of years.
Time is not even really 'meaningful' to us in that sense anyways because it doesnt change anything we get here and now.

 

Fanatics such as these miss the point. This same Bible tells us not to watch for warnings and omens, for Christ will return like a thief in the night. NO ONE knows the hour nor time of day - That is why we are to live as though each moment might be our last, living in joyful expectation, not perpetuating fear and hate. He is not the author of confusion; we were told not to get wrapped up in the hype.

We were told to "worry about nothing, and pray about all things." We spread the Good News as though each day might be our last, but we shouldn't succumb to the desire to incite panic in place of zeal. They're two entirely different feelings.

Mr. Campbell, I would encourage you to check out some information on evolution so that you can get a better understanding of the bigger picture. There are different kinds of evolution, specifically microevolution and macroevolution. Macroevolution is the theory that all living things are derived from one common source, and there is not much in support of it.

Microevolution, however, has been proven time and again. It's also known as specialization - Ex. all dogs come from the same ancestors, but over time, specialization has made it so that some dogs with common lineage look totally different. On a grander scale, all species of specific animals, i.e. ducks, cattle, etc. have a common primitive ancestor. And all birds (ducks, sea birds, sparrows, etc. etc.) have a common primitive ancestor, just like all canines do (dog, fox, wolf, etc.).

So since we have been able to make these connections through mapping out our archaeological finds and considering the carbon dating, it is unclear where these connections will end. This doesn't even mention the idea of genetic mutations which have been documented on animals allowing them to evolve quickly over a short expanse of time. Perhaps you should read more on the subject - Even if you don't agree, it's always better to know exactly what you don't agree with, right?

 

Hippylongstockings.

You dont know what you are talking about.
You would not only fail a class in Evolutionism but would be asked to leave the class.
Please dont 'advise' people when you dont even know what or why you are saying anything for Evolutionism

Im not 'flaming' you either - Im sincerely telling you that you do not know what your talking about.
Thnkx

 

Erasmus, yes we disagree on so many things, but man I can't help but be soo damn grateful for you. You make this world a more funny place.

Fundies are always good for a chuckle, wouldn't you guys say?
Thank god for Fundies!

 

You could use that exact quote referencing the nuts who endorse creationism.

 

ROFL! What kind of school do you go to...? Imagine! They expect you to have all of the answers before even completing the course.

Evolution is a complex subject that can't be covered in one paragraph. This information was provided to Mr. Campbell from a website on apologetics, in order to give him an idea of what others of a like mindset had to say on the subject - I was merely interjecting that I didn't agree with all of the information contained. This information is contained at this website.

http://www.apologeticscourses.com/Courses/Evol.htm

I do hope you'll forgive me for not being able to sufficiently cover such a wide subject in such a small amount of space. Even I have my limitations.